1.1 Activism Through Art
With Sarah Fitzgerald
Sarah Fitzgerald and Bronte Charlotte chat about their experiences with activism, particularly in light of the Black Lives Matter movement. They discuss the state of diversity in the Melbourne theatre scene, and the lack of relevant content being taught at drama schools, presented on main stages, and promoted within our highly heteronormative, white society.
During this episode we discuss:
[02:43] Commercial casting, and the body politics & racial politics that comes with it
[09:00] Adopting cats and kittens, the mental health benefits of having pets, and the consistency and love that comes with it
[14:55] Activism, protesting, and combining your activism with your artistic practice
[18:26] Shakespeare and the dwindling relevance of the ‘classics’
[22:02] VCA, Henry V and gender binaries in casting
[25:52] Just Not That Many Campaign
[26:30] Kim Ho, The Great Australian Play and other Asian Australian creatives
[28:22] Sandra Oh, Killing Eve and powerful femmes in film
[32:21] Taking up space, when to be putting on shows, and how we can create space for Black and Indigenous People of Colour to be at the forefront
[39:37] Whitewashing education and training in Drama Schools
[43:31] The power of play in a rehearsal room, and how sometimes performance can imitate life as you live it
[49:36] Activism from home during a Global Pandemic, police brutality and their toxic behaviour across the globe
[55:11] GET ON IT: The Australian Dream, a documentary about Adam Goodes experience with racism in AFL
Oh No, Satan Stole my Pineal Gland, 2019
Image captured by Jack Dixon-Gunn
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Bronte:
This is Chats with Creatives, a podcast where we talk about living as creative humans in a capitalist society, the experiences we have and insecurities we hold, a place where we have open and inclusive conversations to learn, understand, educate and connect.
My name is Bronte and this is Activism Through Art with Sarah Fitzgerald. Sarah is one of my absolute favorite people. I was fortunate enough to go to the VCA with her. We both graduated in 2018 and since then Sarah has been absolutely killing it. She performed in Oh no, Satan Stole my Pineal Gland in the Fringe Festival in 2019. And then she started off 2020 and Kim Ho's marvelous production of The Great Australian Play. Sarah is an animal rights activist and a total inspiration to me. She is one of the most caring, generous, empathetic and glorious humans I have ever met. I hope you enjoy this chat... it's a long one, it's a good one. It's full of laughter and love, joy and anger.
Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land that I am recording this podcast on today, the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation. Welcomes Sarah!
Sarah:
Thank you. I feel so welcome.
Bronte:
Bloody how are you?
Sarah:
Mate, I caught the public transport here.
Bronte:
Did you? I thought you'd drive.
Sarah:
No, I'm trying to be more environmentally friendly.
Bronte:
Yeah, right. So as I mentioned before... That you're an activist and and here we are.
Sarah:
Great segue! Yeah, no, it's really stressful catching public transport now. Like I think earlier on when Covid-19 felt like more of a threat, it wasn't as nerve racking because fewer people were taking it. But I had someone sit on the train next to me today.
Bronte:
Oh, really? Was there much space around you?
Sarah:
So much space, so many empty 4-seaters.
Bronte:
Come on man. Go somewhere else!
Sarah:
Yeah. I didn't know how to handle it. I was like, "ooooh?" And I just like got up and stood. And I was so angry. I was angry at him. I was angry at the woman who saw it happen. I was angry at myself. I was like, do I say something? But other than that I'm pretty up and down as people often are at this time. I had to... I shouldn't be so negative about it, but I had to edit together a self-test.
Bronte:
Oh indeed. Why you canceled dinner the other night. Because you were busy self-taping like a true actor with real representation. No, tell me why... What's going on with that? Because there's been a few times now it's happened where you're like not loving self testing.
Sarah:
Commercials have a very specific way of being super vague. And I feel like when you're not in the room with the casting agent for a commercial, it's really hard to... Like, you have to sit there and interpret really vague, zero dialogue... Like, I had to shoot four scenes twice. One scene was like, 'drawing enthusiastically in bed.' I always like, OK, I've got to do this... And I just have minutes of footage of me drawing on a pad and trying to figure out the right way to... Yeah, it's just one of those... It feels unrewarding and it's like, if I get it that's great because I'll get paid heaps of money for doing the commercial... But if I don't get it I never have to do this again.
Bronte:
Yeah, it's such a weird situation. I help Leigh film so many self tapes for commercials and they're just the weirdest things. And some that he tells me about that he's in the room, he's like, "yeah once I had to pretend I was driving up a mountain chasing a goat, like racing a goat up a mountain..." He had to pretend that he was like looking out the window at a goat. And I was like, why?! Like, I get that they need to see you and see what you look like, I guess. But it's so, like, just mildly degrading because they're so image based. It's completely what you look like, and do you represent the product, which is fair! But it's, oh it's just a bit heartbreaking to be like, "clearly I didn't... I didn't get it because, you know, I don't look the way you want me to look." I don't know. I just find it really tricky.
Sarah:
No 100%! And I feel like body politics come into... Here we go. Body politics come into it so much because you've got to look a certain way, and if there are... Like, say if you're a woman and your hair's too short, or your physique is not as curvy or something like that, then all these other connotations are added on to you. Or if you're a person of color... Like, I had this audition for an anti-discrimination ad, and it was kind of anti-homophobic... But when you put someone like me in that and someone looks at them funny, are they homophobic or are they racist or like, why are they looking at this? And so then that comes into play and then you're like, OK... So then, how do you cast someone so that the message of homophobia is clear and not muddled with racist? Or like, things like that. You know, probably for that goat ad they probably wanted a really, like, rugged Australian.
Bronte:
Yes, I think that's who got it. Someone with a big beard and wore flannels and stuff.
Sarah:
Totally. And things that are out of control about your body. You can't... Because Leigh's really rugged Australian looking.
Bronte:
Yeah. Especially now that he's grown a big ass beard... Shaved his head.
Sarah:
You guys are ready for a Ned Kelly re-boot.
Bronte:
He's so ready for it.
Sarah:
Yeah. Not so much you with your pink hair at the moment.
Bronte:
Oh, no. Let's change the subject. How did we meet, Sarah Fitzgerald?
Sarah:
Stars aligned...
Bronte:
I remember when we gazed across the room at each other during Synthesis.
Sarah:
Oh, so this is intense. I remember being... I was like quite insecure at the start of VCA and at the end!
Bronte:
Oh my God, aren't we all? The whole way through! The whole journey is full of insecurities!
Sarah:
It's just new ones! I remember just being, like, wildly jealous of you and being like, "she's so..."
Bronte:
Boring...
Sarah:
Amazing!
Bronte:
I wish I was that boring.
Sarah:
No! I just thought you were so strong. And then, like, I thought you were obviously very good at what you did and highly intelligent and then gorgeous. And then you would be really excellent at random things like yoga and, you'd be like, "I'm a black belt in Tae Kwon Do." And I was like, "what the fuck? How did I get into this school?"
Bronte:
Oh, I would look at you the same way, though! Like you'd talk about all of your... all the shows that you'd already done and like, that you were, you were doing shows throughout VCA! I was one of those lazy shits that was like, "no, I'm going to focus on my study and just do nothing." And then there were people in our company who'd like, do a show every semester or like, write there own stuff!
Sarah:
That blows my mind. Writing is so hard! I used to think I was a writer and then I...
Bronte:
Are you not?
Sarah:
This year I've been like, wow, I actually am not really good at this. I was like, good for a high school student and now that I'm in a big pond. I'm not so great at this and it takes a lot of work. And it's crazy that, yeah Cheryl wrote a show, Ian wrote a show, Callums written a show!
Bronte:
Oh my God, Callums show! Just a side note... Let's just... Callums show is incredible. I cannot wait for everyone to see it. Oh, my God. That's all I can say. And all I will say. But holy moly, I'm so ready.
Sarah:
I haven't, I don't know anything about this except that he started writing it in first year because I like vaguely remember him talking about it.
Bronte:
Fitzy, it's so good. I love it so much.
Sarah:
For all of Bronte's listeners, Worst Gen Theatre Company are putting on Callum MacKay's strange play.
Bronte:
No, it's wonderful. It's so good. It's a two hander and it's all about like, love and friendship. And it's just, it's really beautiful. You know when you read something and you're just like, "oh, this is... this is legit." I did a double take and was like, "oh my God, I went to fucking VCA with this guy." No it's so, so, so good. And yeah, Worst Gen will be putting it on. It's called Last Train to Madeline, and it's just so beautiful.
Sarah:
I love a good story about friendship. I feel like it's such a good love story, the friendship love story. Like that film that we all recently watched and really liked on Netflix. So moving.
Bronte:
The Half Of It! So beautiful, so beautiful! Oh, my God. If anyone hasn't seen it, bloody jump on Netflix and give it a watch.
Sarah:
Oh, it's exquisite in every way.
Bronte:
And the leads voice! Can I just like, side note that! Oh my God, her voice is beautiful.
Sarah:
It was one of those moments you're like, "who cast this? Who did this? Who found her?" She's amazing.
Bronte:
Who found her? She's so great. And her relationship with her dad. I love it!
Sarah:
Oh such a... such a beautiful film.
Bronte:
Do you have something that you do every single day? Like a daily practice? And it doesn't have to be to do with acting or performing. Could be movement, vocal, mental, spiritual...
Sarah:
I do spend time with my cats every day. I'm trying to think if there's anything else I do every day... Yeah, I spend... When I first got them, I started waking up half an hour, an hour earlier than I usually did just to have time with them in the morning. It felt like important to be a good parent.
Bronte:
When did you get them?
Sarah:
I got them in 2017, about half way through...
Bronte:
Halfway through VCA.
Sarah:
It was super weird... I got so attached to them so quickly. So, they were foster cats, I was supposed to give them away.
Bronte:
Oh no. It doesn't happen.
Sarah:
It started the same way! I wanted a dog, I now have two cats. You were about to get a dog not long ago...
Bronte:
I followed in your footsteps! Oh my goodness. Here we are. Kitten mothers.
Sarah:
Oh, it's the best. But, I got so attached to them so quickly, I used to hallucinate and see them... Like, we were at St. Martin's doing Shakespeare when we got them. And I would like, in the corner of my eye in the wings of the stage, see my cats!
Bronte:
Oh my goodness, is that when they were still fosters? You hadn't adopted them yet?
Sarah:
Yeah. So they came from the Lost Dogs Home which is a pound. A pretty controversial pound. I don't know where they came from before that. I don't think that they were together before that. And, they were on death row. And, this rescue called Forever Friends Animal Rescue posted them online being like, "if someone can foster them, we can get them out." Yeah, so that's about as much of their history as we got. It's really sad, like in shelters, because there's so many animals there's so many pheromones and all these animals are freaking out because of all the pheromones. So like, my cats who are really affectionate, lovely cats, one of them who's the most timid cat... Her write-up was like, she's violent, she's prone to attacking... Stuff like that. I've never had a problem with her. Any vet I've taken to has not had a problem with her. And so I kind of, I spoke to the vet at the shelter about it, being like, "she had this really bad right up, but that's not how she is." And, you know, the people at the shelter are aware that these animals are reacting off of pheromones. They're not taking that into account sometimes. So, my cat was going to be put down because she was an aggressive cat, but she wasn't. She was in a stressful environment.
Bronte:
Of course. And cats are so territorial! And they... Like when I first got my kittens, if there was anything coming from above, they'd totally freak out. It's in their nature to, like, be very protective of what's above them because things attack them from above. If they're stressed and then they're surrounded by animals and noises and they don't know where things are coming from, of course they're going to freak out.
Sarah:
Yeah. Actually getting them was really lovely and healing. They've kind of been a source of comfort and consistency. Like, no matter how the world fluctuates, my cats love me. And that's... So do my parents but I don't really fight with my cats.
Bronte:
Yeah. There's a consistency of love and companionship, as well. Like you would, I'm assuming, whenever you'd come home from VCA, like your cats would always be there and you'd always have that to go home to.
Sarah:
Yeah. And it's nice to have something to care about.
Bronte:
And somewhere to place your love. It's a cool thing when you think about having a pet or even having a child... Like you could... There's an amount of love that you feel for people in your life and sometimes you feel a lot of love and you don't think there's anything else that you could possibly give. And then an animal or another person or a child or something else comes into your life and you don't have to share your love between things. You kind of just add love and you have more to give.
Sarah:
A different type of love is manifested in yourself. How's it been for you, kind of, introducing these kittens into your life?
Bronte:
I got these two, I think, the week after lockdown and it's changed how I rest... Because I'm a very like, I'm mildly OCD and like, I have to be productive and I have to be doing things and I have to be actively producing something. And I was really struggling in the first few weeks of Covid, of lockdown, seeing all the work that people were doing and all the things that people were producing. And then I got these kittens and suddenly it was OK for me to sit on the couch for two hours because there was this tiny little creature just asleep on me. And it's OK for me to like, sit and rest and do nothing. And that's kind of... It's been a very big shift in the way that I kind of, move through the day.
It's probably just in my nature, but I think also from VCA, this very like, productive way of doing things and like, having a schedule and having consistency and having tasks to do... I kind of kept that. We've been out for eighteen months... I kept that, from the end of VCA, until probably the start of Covid. Like I kept... Like, not producing, I'm not producing things but I, you know, I went on tour and I was working full time and then I did my yoga teacher training and then I was really pushing working as a yoga teacher. And it wasn't until the whole world was like, "no, no, hold on, stop one minute. Have two kittens." And I was like, "oh, I see." I've talked about it a few times with different people. This idea of like, REST, in our very, very fast paced society is almost like another thing to, like, tick off a list. It's like a productivity... It's a productive task TO rest. But I found that having kittens, as well as, like, massively inflating my love and joy and happiness being at home, it's allowed me to rest in a very actual restful way.
Bronte:
Pre-VCA... What were you doing? What were you doing before you started training?
Sarah:
I was studying a Bachelor of Arts majoring in International Politics and Literature, and I was doing a diploma of languages in Italian. This is probably, well time will tell, but this may be the most candid conversation I've ever had about activism because I was such a bad political sciences student. Like, I was just kind of doing the bare minimum and getting by.
Bronte:
You protested a lot, didn't you? I know that you said the other day that that used to be one of your main forms of activism, protesting.
Sarah:
Yeah, I went to my first demonstration when I was 15 or something like that. Yeah,it just kind of became the way that I saw... I assumed, change would happen. I took a break from it... when I started at VCA I was a bit disillusioned about protesting.
Bronte:
In what way?
Sarah:
I guess I felt like I'd been going to the same protests for the past five years and nothing had changed. And that was really disheartening. And now I feel like... I've kind of changed my perspective on activism. I know you and I kind of spoke about, when the Black Lives Matter protest was about to happen in Melbourne, in Naarm... We discussed the pros and cons of going. Like, I guess we kind of discussed what would be the best form of activism in that moment. Was it to show up on the ground? And I know you went and I didn't. I guess I now feel like I've been to lots of protests and I feel for me, they're a very emotive thing. And there are some that I'll never stop going to. Like, I will never stop going to the Invasion Day March.
Bronte:
Until something is changed.
Sarah:
Yeah, I'm kind of... We need to educate ourselves.
Bronte:
Absolutely.
Sarah:
You know, I try to do the right thing. I assess my actions. I try not to be racist. I try to proactively campaign against racism. And I'm starting to really understand that that isn't enough.
Bronte:
Just as a side note, you are probably the most active person I've ever met on all of those fronts. And committed and passionate about it and actively doing it. I've really honestly, I've never known you in a time where you aren't focusing on how to make the world better for everyone.
Sarah:
Thank you. That's really sweet of you to say. I feel like I often don't, especially in our line of work. You are working outside the rehearsal room. You're working inside the rehearsal room. And even when we were at VCA, it's very intense. So I often find that I kind of excuse myself by being like, "oh, I need to focus on my career." And now I'm starting to also realise that those don't have to be mutually exclusive. If I want to see better art activism as part of that. Like, equality and equity and more voices, will just inherently result in better art. Telling stories in different ways, with different perspectives, in ways that haven't been done before is what great art is. It's starting from a place of discomfort. And if we want to pursue better art, if Australia wants to produce better art, it needs to have discomfort and deal with uncomfortable things. And also understand that it needs to do something different. We can't keep telling the same stories that we're telling. We need to tell new stories. And that's exciting and should be an exciting thing. But of course, you know, we're also battling an industry that is trying to mimic the US and mimic England.
Bronte:
It's an interesting thing. I've always been really conflicted about Shakespeare, how it's this... I'm so conflicted because because I love doing Shakespeare. I love speaking the words and like, getting up there and speaking this beautiful iambic pentameter and being passionate and full of love or rage or leading a war or like, whatever the character is that you may be doing. And I enjoy watching it as well. And I think sometimes it can be modernised in a way that is useful... There is a theatre over in London that recently did three all female productions of different Shakespeare productions, one being Henry IV. And if anyone knows Harriet Walter, she has an amazing book out, so give it a bloody good read. She was in all three of those and she kind of made it happen. And that's really cool... And particularly in England, when you get people doing Shakespeare, you get people from all over, you get all sorts of different socio-economic actors, people from all sorts of different places. Yeah, the way that this particular show, one of the shows, were done in this trio of shows was... All female cast, all female production crew, and it was set in a prison. So you kind of get these different views of like, the power dynamics between women.
But then, there's also like, Shakespeare's work is inherently sexist, it's racist, so much of it is problematic. And we are still doing it. We are still doing this stuff that has been done over and over and over again. And I totally agree with what you say, that we need to be doing new things. That's so important. Even looking at Indigenous storytelling, like that's been done for thousands and thousands of thousands of years. But, it's not being told on our main stages. Let's bring it forward to the forefront and let's just say, "thanks Shakespeare. You've done your time, like you've had 400 years on the fucking main stage, mate. Let's give it a break..." Unless, it's a really progressive piece of theatre. There's so much more stuff out there that needs to be on a show. It needs to be said. It needs to be performed. It needs to be heard.
Sarah:
I had this thought last night as well, when I was thinking about coming here to do this. And I was thinking about the Merchant of Venice, which is such a problematic play!
Bronte:
It's so problematic. But in saying that there's a few monologues in there that I fucking love and there's scenes that are wonderful, talking about like, you know, 'the quality of mercy.' But the actual play, the actual play is so problematic.
Sarah:
Yeah, super anti-Semitic.
Bronte:
So bad! I'm laughing but I'm in pain.
Sarah:
And it's like, if Shakespeare was a contemporary playwright, would we let him get away with these things? I get, like people like to frame it being like, "oh but it's a it's a product of the times..." And stuff like that. But it's just like, I don't know, I feel like being a decent human being is...
Bronte:
Important...?
Sarah:
It's also something that people can know. Which is not to say that Shakespeare was a downright asshole, but in some ways... Like writing Taming of the Shrew as a comedy is like, OK, we know he can write great female characters and he can view them as humans. So then why does he choose to write this really horrible play and stage it as a comedy? And then why do people in 21st century Australia feel the need to re-stage Taming of the Shrew and think by making it a tragedy -.
Bronte:
- that it's suddenly OK to be telling the story of "taming a shrew..."
Sarah:
Yeah, and Shakespeare is such a hard one, because people are so devoted to him. And after studying Shakespeare at VCA, I've found a real love for his words and the way that he can kind of get to these fundamental parts of humanity.
Bronte:
But do you remember when we were doing... So, we did Henry V in second year.
Sarah:
Bronte played Henry.
Bronte:
Along with two other wonderful, wonderful femmes in our company. But our company was split in half for those two Shakespeare productions. And they were split, in inverted commas, by gender. In our company, we had a gender nonconforming person who was put in with the female cast and that caused issues... Absolutely should have. And it started a lot of conversations in our company that I think were really, really, really valuable. And I think it helped us all as a cohort, kind of, delve deeper into our prejudices and what we think is OK or what we think is progressive. Looking at an all female production of Henry V is like, great! But in that all 'female' production, we have a person that doesn't identify as female and they don't have a choice where they've been cast. And that's hugely problematic. And then...
Sarah:
And also asking them to choose how they would like to identify in that moment with a binary.
Bronte:
It was just like a big issue. There was this one scene... At the end of Henry V, there's a scene where, there's like three female characters in the entire show... One is the French queen, one is the French princess, and one is her maid. And they're the only female characters. And the French queen says absolutely nothing... And there's a scene where the French princess is getting, she's getting dressed by her maid. And I just remember we had these conversations that were like, this scene is awful. Like, she's getting ready to be essentially sold off to this Englishman to be married...
Sarah:
And also the way we portrayed it. Do you remember how we did that scene?
Bronte:
I do.
Sarah:
Yeah, it was like very rape-y, molest-y kind of touching...
Bronte:
Was that the point? Was that our intention to be like, this is a fucked up scene. And so we want to make it as fucked up as possible or something?
Sarah:
Yeah, that's my memory of it.
Bronte:
I never really fully understood that. That's one of the many times I've kind of looked at a Shakespeare play and been like, "oh God man..."
Sarah:
Yeah.
Bronte:
In my tour last year, I did two Shakespeare shows. I did Macbeth and I did Romeo & Juliet. And the same things... Like, the two - two - female characters in Macbeth, Lady Macbeth and Lady Macduff, they don't have first names. They don't have names. They're named after their husbands. It always grates on me. And then, Juliet essentially being sold to a man more than, you assume his age if he's a really good friend with her father, you would think that, you know, this 13 year old girl is being married off to a man her father's age. And these are hugely problematic texts that we are continuously doing - that we're teaching in high school!
Sarah:
That a contemporarily problematic like, to be putting... when the US haven't outlawed child marriages on a state level, when there are heaps of countries where child marriages are still happening, how do you separate that? Is it just enough that people come to, you know, come to the park for a bit of Shakespeare in the summer? Like, it shouldn't. We shouldn't hold the bar so low. Again if we want to make good art, we need to... We need to address these things and we need to consider how we can do better in those areas. I will say I really loved the Pop-up Globe.
Bronte:
I did, too.
Sarah:
That was some of the best theater I've ever seen. It's exactly what theater should be, which is engaging and accessible.
Bronte:
Also they, which was the production where they had...
Sarah:
Othello! With the Haka.
Bronte:
Yes. Where they had all of these Maori actors and the Haka.
Sarah:
It's crazy how New Zealand is really good at this. And then like Australia and the US and Canada are really bad.
Bronte:
You were a part of the Just Not That Many campaign, am I right?
Sarah:
You're right.
Bronte:
How was that? For me, that was like a super powerful thing to see and to see form and to follow. I found it really powerful and important.
Sarah:
Yeah. Sonya Suares is a powerhouse woman and she formed the idea. That's the inception of it. And then, so the first one was, of course, a whole bunch of Desi women and it was sick. Like, that was incredible to just be around. It highlighted when people of color, people with disabilities, people of the LGBTQI community were in shows.
Bronte:
That makes me think about when you were in The Great Australian Play and Kim Ho had this thing every night where he would have another Asian creative come up and bow instead of him. And it was just this ongoing joke. And I just found it so wonderful every night to see the photo of this other Asian creative who would come up and bow in his place.
Sarah:
Oh, Kim is amazing. He's really like, he's not afraid. Or if he is, he overcomes it and does spicy, spicy things.
Bronte:
Oh, my God, so spicy.
Sarah:
Spicy little things on stage, spicy things off stage. So he was IN The Great Australian Play. I mean, you know, if this gets remounted, then like, lol, spoiler alert. But, he features in it, and every night at the end of the show when we did the bows, he would wear the same clothes pretty much every night and he would get an Asian creative and he would invite them to come see the show and get them to dress the same way... So he had a costume backstage for Fake Kim. And we would plant them in the audience next to Kim. And then when we gesture out for him to come on stage and bow with us, Kim would be gone and this person would be there in lieu.
Bronte:
Oh my goodness. But how many nights... It was on for two weeks, wasn't it?
Sarah:
Yeah, it was something like that. It was 11 shows.
Bronte:
But even just to have someone with Asian background to come up, and is a creative in the Melbourne independent theatre industry, to come up and be there is kind of just like, there are so many people...
Sarah:
People think there's just not that many. Yeah. It's really cool. We out there! When shows, films, TV shows "take the risk" and put on someone who you don't traditionally see in those formats, they do extremely well. The show, the film, whatever does extremely well.
Bronte:
For me a classic example of that is in Killing Eve, Sandra Oh playing the lead.
Sarah:
That is a great example of a really... I have real beef about when I get open casting... inverted commas again... and I get a character and I can tell that they've been written for a white person. There's no like, for a person of color, in my experience, if this character doesn't talk about their family, doesn't see their family, that's a significant thing for a person of color. And there'll be a story behind that. And if there's no mention of that, there's no hint that family is going to be included in their storyline, I'm like, you didn't write this seeing a person of color.
But killing Eve... The thing with Eve is that she... The way Eve is, is like, she's overseas away from any family. She's also a really distant person and an obsessive person about her work. So it makes sense for her family to be really distant and be really out of the picture for her character. And so it works. Like that, to me, is a pretty reasonable, open casting. And then Sandra Oh is incredible.
Bronte:
She's amazing. And the story that goes with her getting the role is that, her agent sent her the script and was like, "there's a role in this for you. They want you to be in this show, have a read, see what you think." And she comes back and she's like, "this is like the best thing I've ever read. I just don't see the part for me." And the agents like, "it's Eve. They want you to play Eve." And she's like, "what? But are you saying that lead role is not white? And younger than me?" And she was, like she honestly didn't think that there was a part for her in the script. I just think it's so amazing, because she is an incredible actor. She is so good.
Sarah:
And Eve is such a hard character. I honestly don't know how...
Bronte:
Oh, my goodness. And her teamed with Jodie Comer is like just great!
Sarah:
Great chemistry.
Bronte:
The actors in that show... The thing I fucking love about Killing Eve is that, number 1, it's written by a woman. The lead roles like, if you think about Killing Eve as a Bond movie, Bond is a man. The love interest is a woman. All the evil people, all the bad guys are men. The leaders are men. Everyone is men - except for the love interest. Whereas in Killing Eve, the lead is a woman. The love interest and the evil character is a woman. The boss is a woman. The boss of the villains are women. Everyone is a woman. And it's so believable. And there's... It's just like, there's a moment in *spoiler alert* there's a moment in the third season where one of - ONE of - the female bosses walks in, its first time you're introduced to the character and she's on the phone to her daughter trying to help the daughter feel better after she's hurt herself. And then she hangs up the phone and she, you know, calls Villanelle aside and like, they open champagne and they're celebrating. And then she gets another phone call and it's her mum saying the daughter is still upset and it's like - great! So this is a mother in a really high stress environment, in a high position of power in her workplace, and she's getting phone calls from her daughter and her mother. And it's just like, it's so wonderful to see. And it's...
Sarah:
I didn't even think about that when I saw it. Amazing.
Bronte:
Just the fact that she walks in and it's not a man. I was like, yes! Yes, thank you. Thank you.
Sarah:
Phoebe Waller-Bridge, the writer, she kind of... I read an interview where she was talking about Killing Eve and how it was a really big deal to be writing these powerful, sexually powerful women without taking their clothes off. And how that is like a big deal.
Bronte:
In fact having like, some of the best fucking fashion ever! Villanelles clothes are wonderful.
Sarah:
Amazing. Again, pursuit of good art. Imagine if we had that when we were younger.
Bronte:
It's just nice to, yeah, to see things represented on screen or on stage that are not...
Sarah:
Women are humans. Not vehicles. Yeah.
Bronte:
Is there something that you kind of struggle with in our industry or like, creatively. I know we've, you know, we've covered a lot about casting and the type of theater that we put on. But I know, before the Black Lives Matter protest we were talking about... Putting work on. Is it like, should we be telling our story? Should we be the ones putting work on? Like, I know for me that's like a huge question.
Sarah:
Yeah same. The industry is a pain in the ass, but it never feels like the primary struggle. I think the struggle is for me, I mean, obviously, you know, be a good actor, be a good artist. But also just, how to be a good, responsible person. Which ties in a bit to what we were talking about, which is how... How do we tell our stories when there is such a great need for these opportunities to be occupied by people who have had their stories unwelcome for such a long time. Which is a really hard...
I spoke to a creative who is Chinese and was, they were kind of saying how they haven't made for a little while and it's hard to want to make something when the world is so unwelcoming of it. Particularly now. And especially for Indigenous folks, whose stories kind of have to force Australia to deal with their shame and failures and shortcomings, in some ways. It's already so unwelcoming an environment. I think that our duty as people of color and white people, like when we're not black and Indigenous, we need to start considering how we can support those stories being made, first and foremost. It's a hard thing to think about because especially if you feel like there is a story you really want to tell and you're given a platform to tell it... And it's not that we should silence our voices and suppress our storytelling. It's not that there is no place for our storytelling in the world. It's just that we need to share it. We're given the opportunity to hog it, and it's long overdue that when we have these opportunities, we share it, we pass up on it if we can. It's not like this is a new idea. There are plenty of like, when they were casting for Black Panther for the general character, there was another actress tapped to do it. And she said - she rejected the role - because she said, this is an opportunity to use a dark skinned person. Like this is a film that celebrates being African and being black. And it's not the right time for someone as light skinned as me to take that opportunity. There are lots of people who pass the mic whose stories we don't know, who are just like, using their positions of power.
And also, it's hard like, when we're at this stage in our careers where, you know, we don't have the power to be rejecting offers and redirecting them. Like, you know, I feel like if a casting agent was like to me, "I'm going to give you this role." And I was like, "no, I think you should give it to an Indigenous person, because I think that their storytelling is more relevant than my storytelling right now." I feel like the casting agents going to be like, "you know what, I'm just going to go to my second preference and fuck you." Yeah, it's kind of... It's funny. There's things that we can do that we should do. And then there are some things that are out of our hand that we need to be putting pressure on the people higher up to be doing.
Bronte:
It is black and Indigenous peoples times for their stories to be told. For there to be space on stage or on screen, for them to be represented.
Sarah:
For First Nations peoples of all... There is so little First Nation U.S. content. It's staggering. And same with Canada. For some reason, Polynesian country seem to be really good at it, at celebrating their cultures and having places for it. And for some reason we're really bad at it. And by being an immigrant, I'm complicit in that oppression. By my family coming here and living on stolen land, and doing the Australian citizenship test and sort of, abiding by the requirements of white Australia - We are oppressing our First Nations people.
Indigenous Australians don't want us all to leave. That has never been their... like, I've never been to a rally or anything like that or met an Indigenous Australian who's been like, "I want you to get out of my country." That's not what it is. But for Asian people, for anyone who comes to Australia, including people who have been here for generations and generations but aren't Indigenous Australian, we need to understand how complicit we are in upholding these systems and therefore oppressing people.
Bronte:
That's a really huge weight to bear.
Sarah:
For both you and I.
Bronte:
Yeah, yeah, no, I do think that. I think that it can be really overwhelming and quite heartbreaking to have these thoughts and these realizations that we are complicit in the destruction of the of a culture. But in saying that, it is just fact. And it is something that we can never take back as much as, you know, many people in our generation and generations below us, and some of the older generations agree and think and feel the same way... It's still actively happening. There is still an active oppression and destruction of Indigenous peoples, First Nations peoples culture, and their storytelling and their lives and their land.
Sarah:
Yeah, there's a great Martin Luther King Junior quote where, I think it came out of a letter that he wrote when he was in prison, where he talks about the biggest obstacle to the civil rights movement, essentially it's not the far right... It's the people who are the complacent white people. And to put it into this context, all of us who are being complacent, who are choosing... Who believe that, you know... We're wax lyrical about wanting equality and equity, but that comes at a price. And we often as a society don't want to pay that price. And so we opt for negative peace, as Martin Luther King describes it, which is we opt for 'Peace with Order' rather than positive peace, which is 'Peace with Justice.' It's kind of that moment where being progressive and holding these beliefs that there should be equality and equity are not enough. We need to start making, like, we need to start acting on the hard truths, which is that, yeah, we have to pass the mic. We are on stolen land. And not just knowing that, but then being like, "so what am I going to do about that?"
Bronte:
What can we do?
Sarah:
Great question. Any number of things. I'm not very well read in this area. So this is not by any means an exhaustive list, but it is... In the arts, having those conversations about - why are we an all white cast? And, why are we putting this on? Is this the time for Shakespeare? If it is, what play are we going to do and how do you make it relevant and...
Bronte:
Inclusive and yeah, and relevant.
Sarah:
And why aren't there more plays like Conversations with the Dead? That's the kind of plays that Australia needs right now, that kind of writing. Why don't the VCA acting students have more interaction with the Willin Center?
Bronte:
Why did we in our second and third year only ever do pieces written by white men? Why? And why, after we had already commented and asked to do stuff from Australian writers, indigenous writers, female writers, non-gender conforming writers, like why were we still doing pieces that were like, nothing was written by anyone but a cis white man?
Sarah:
Yeah. Why are we giving them airtime? Like, I don't care how subversive the director is going to be with the text, why don't we pick something that completely subverts the status quo? By picking something, by like, you know a writer of colour...
Bronte:
What are we learning by doing the classics over and over and over again? And why are they classics? Because no one will do anything else.
Sarah:
We did Chekhov, and we do Chekhov every year, because he's a great writer and actors need to learn how to grapple with that. No! These writers are not chosen to further our acting techniques and stuff like that. It's a place of comfort. It's a place of familiarity and expectation that we go in...
Bronte:
And whitewashing. It's like, how how can we get all of our students to act in this one particular way for this one particular white man's writing style?
Sarah:
Yeah, and how can we... Yeah, whitewashing. How can we westernize the way they act?
Bronte:
Yeah. Which was so disappointing when we had a gay black American man come to run the acting course, who had experience in Bali with Indonesian performance and Balinese dance and mask work. Like, that was such an exciting thing and it kind of... We did mask for Chekhov, which was interesting and great to look at it in a new way! To look at this white man's writing in a way, not really the text so much as just the relationships, to look at them while doing mask work. But that was, for me, one of the most interesting things that we did in our three years. Like, I was lucky enough to get to go to China and see all of these Australasian drama schools do the theatre from their place of training. And I just remember watching like, Malaysian theatre and Mongolian theatre and like, these incredible pieces... And they're just, even like Chinese Opera - It's fucking incredible. And then you get these three Australian fucking drama schools come and just do Chekhov.
Why are we not learning at the VCA, when we have the Willin Center, why are we not learning Indigenous storytelling, learning about it even? Or like, learning from an Indigenous teacher, a First Nations teacher? Like where? Why? Why? I just put that out there. Why? And we as a company, like we were pretty vocal about that, I think, that we you know, I mean, that's why we ended up putting on our own play readings at the end of third year.
Sarah:
Of all Australian plays!
Bronte:
Of all Australian plays, because we were like, "OK, we're fucking done with the old white American man. Thank you."
Sarah:
That isn't relevant to us.
Bronte:
That isn't relevant. Written before the 1950s? Like, come on!
Sarah:
And why do these great storytelling methods only have a place in process and not on stage? Like why, in the time that we were there, our company was the most multicultural. As far as I could tell. And I think that's part of the reason why we got so much out of our company, was that there was that to share. So why aren't they seeing that as an important thing? I feel like it makes a company think about their privilege and be open to the fact that this world exists.
Bronte:
I have a question to just lighten the mood. What brings you joy, creatively?
Sarah:
Oh, my gosh.
Bronte:
Oh, my Gosh. What is it?
Sarah:
Oh, when it's like... Oh, this whole time, the only thing I've missed is a rehearsal room, like getting to play and be around other actors. Being in a room with a bunch of actors and being really playful and... It makes me really believe in my place as an actor because there's nothing else I'd rather be doing. And there's like, you know, I'm not like, "I'd love to direct," or "I'd love to write something," to do this, I'm like, I literally just... It's almost like no responsibility. You get the script, you go home, you have a bunch of ideas about it, then you come in and then you do anything and it can be wrong and that is not your problem, your fault, like...
Bronte:
And you've had... Have you had experiences I mean, clearly in a rehearsal room where that's encouraged? Where playing is ideal... and good to do?
Sarah:
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. She says, a single tear rolls down her cheek.
Bronte:
I had some really, really interesting experiences right out of graduating the VCA, which led me to taking a mild break from rehearsal rooms because I found them quite toxic. But it's really lovely to hear that you can have that type of experience and that that's what brings you joy. That space... Because that is such a fun and exciting time.
Sarah:
And there's like so many hard things about... "so many hard things about being an actor..." But there's so many like, learning lines is such a drag, you just have to sit down and like, do it. And then, you know, there's like, prod week is really hard - your crew is really tired and, you know, you're just like, you're they're really late. And if it's profit share, you...
Bronte:
You're not getting paid.
Sarah:
You're probably losing money.
Bronte:
You're not getting to go to work. There's no income, there's no rent.
Sarah:
So there's like, lots of these little hard things. But if you are given a space where you can explore and play and that's carried not just through the rehearsal but into prod week... Like, just having a good-ish crew and a good cast and just like basically good people around in cast and crew, it can make all those things so much better.
Bronte:
What are you most proud of in your creative career? Dare I say, career? I think I will say it!
Sarah:
{French accent} Career... So many things. I did love Henry V. That was...
Bronte:
Such fond memories. But that was one of those experiences... I think that was one of those experiences where we just had the most beautiful director and we just had a beautiful crew and we had a lovely, supportive cast and...
Sarah:
And great communication as well. And it was just, it was also just an excellent show. Like, the end product was just fucking fab. And it's rare that I look back on things and say, "I wish I could watch that." But that's definitely one of them. And I loved The Great Australian Play. I thought it was the most important theatre I've ever done.
Bronte:
Oh, my God. It was so, so, so fucking good. I cannot express in words, on this only word format, so good. There were so many things in it that I still question. Like, I don't fully understand it, but I do like... It was so good.
Sarah:
You've just go to strap yourself in for that show.. And that was also because Kim is an excellent writer and creative. Saro is incredible. Like he's just...
Bronte:
Saro was your director?
Sarah:
Yeah. Really compassionate. It's such a... Talking about like, great things to be working with. It was such a joy to have a really compassionate, understanding, genius director. And of course, the crew were just fantastic and the cast was so lovely. And then it was this really... It felt urgently important. And I felt like the show really aligned with my values and then also challenged me. Like made me... I had a big old meltdown. I was like sitting in the wings crying because I'd... I fucked myself up. I was doing this show, which was quite challenging, you know, it's kind of what made me really think about my place as a storyteller. My mom was sick at the time, so I was at hospital with her a lot. And then I also started watching Who Killed Malcolm X. And I started reading that book by Behrouz Boochani, which is about Manus Island and I was like...
Bronte:
Too much all at once!
Sarah:
It was such a mistake. The work was confronting. And anyway, that's what led to that meltdown. But the work was really confronting, the character that I played, Call, was kind of who I was at the time, which is kind of like a very politically correct but inactive activist. And so it was like, oh, cool. Like to really kind of confront myself in that form.
Bronte:
Wow, that's a big thing to go through. And a lot to be taking in, like that's a lot of, the things that you were, kind of, experiencing and reading and taking in at that time must have been just so, so much. I keep having to remind myself now that there's so much information I need and want to know and to understand. But there also needs to be time and space to kind of ingest and digest and reflect and fully appreciate the gravity of all of this information that's coming in at the moment. And I think in that situation, particularly while you're in the middle of a show that's already like, discovering a lot about yourself, I guess, in a way... To then also add on all this really traumatic stuff like, about Manus Island and Malcolm X and to have everything going on with your mum, like, that's just too much. Did you take a rest afterwards?
Sarah:
Oh, thank God for Corona.
Bronte:
Bless you Corona.
Sarah:
I was like, I need a break from theatre, I need a good old break. And I was kind of dead set on getting more into activism because I was just like, I feel like I'm not doing enough. And I feel like while acting is great, it is not where I want to... It was just, you know, life is life is long. You can direct your energies wherever you want to. And at that point I was like, I need to redirect it towards activism. And then Corona happened... So it got rid of demonstrations and it got rid of protests, like everything that was planned just got thrown out the window because it was unsafe to do so. It made me a lazy activist. And then it made me feel like, OK, well then how can I continue activism in a way that I have never before, like writing letters, writing emails, doing things that aren't blocking roads.
Bronte:
I think it's... One of the important things that has come out of Covid, is the realization that we can be active from home. We can be donating money, if we have funds. We can be learning more and having more conversations and doing things that are important, are just as important as going to demonstrations, going to protests, you know, tying yourself to trees. Those things are incredibly important and and work to a point. But there's also, there's so much else to be doing as well.
Sarah:
It's really privileged to be able to go to a demonstration and a march and feel safe.
Bronte:
I've never really thought about protests being an unsafe thing to be at, and I think that's definitely due to my very safe, very privileged upbringing. But I didn't go to protests when I lived in Queensland, so I don't know what they were like, you know, ten years ago. But the protests that I've been to in Melbourne, the only one I've ever questioned and been like I'm actually worried for my safety, is the Black Lives Matter protest. And that was purely because I was suddenly learning about police brutality in Australia. I'd seen about it all over the world. And like even quite recently in Hong Kong, there's been a lot of police brutality, and then a lot of police brutality in America. And it's very like, pushed under the rug in Australia.
When I was there, it was a very overwhelming thing to be out because it was so important and there was a lot of passion... And everyone was placed, you know, very respectfully from each other. And there was free hand sanitizer and face masks. And it felt very safe and it felt very, there felt like a very strong community and connection with all the people that were there. But every, you know, every so often I'd pass a police officer or a group of police officers and to suddenly be looking at these people in a very different way to what I used to... I mean, me being a woman, I've always looked at police as, the people I go to if I'm in danger. And I've never really, until very recently, I haven't considered the fact that that is not for everyone. That is for me, because I am a white woman in Australia, that they are my place to go if I need 'protection.' But yeah, seeing how how they treat First Nations people in Australia and how police in America treat Black, Indigenous, People of Color like, there's a very different way that I look at them now and there's there's no safety associated with it. There is only fear for me. Like I look at them and I go, you are capable of so much violence and pain and you can get away with it.
Sarah:
Yeah, the lack of consequence is so profound.
Bronte:
And I just you know, it was one of those moments I was like, oh, if I'm feeling this, I just can't even comprehend how a person of color or an Indigenous person would be feeling seeing a group of police at, you know, even at like Invasion Day Rally or the Black Lives Matter rallies. Like it is really a big thing to kind of take in and be like, whoa, girl, you are very privileged if this is the first time you are seeing and realising and understanding that kind of thing.
Sarah:
Yeah. So Tanya Day was killed through the negligence of police officers in custody. So she was, she fell asleep on a V-Line and she was racially profiled. And so the police were called and they assumed that she was drunk. And took her into custody. And of course, you know, one thing led to another... She had a terrible head injury and they did nothing about it. And she passed away. That same night, a white woman was found intoxicated and driven home by the police.
Bronte:
It's a really stark difference. And it's hugely problematic and awful.
Sarah:
And that is not like... it's not police officer to police officer. Police officers protect each other. They protect each other from consequence. This whole sense of camaraderie amongst them is what allows these terrible things to happen. And so it's not like, oh, one bad police officer went out that day and was the one...
Bronte:
"And they had a bad day."
Sarah:
Yeah, it was... Oh, that's how they get away with doing these things. It's like, well, you know that in inverted commas, that "good" police officer did nothing. That doesn't make them good, that makes them guilty.
Bronte:
Thank you so much for coming to my humble abode.
Sarah:
Thanks for having me and for making some dope banana bread.
Bronte:
Babe, it is just maple soaked bananas. Literally.
Sarah:
I can't believe it's not butter!
Bronte:
So Sarah and I talked a lot about First Nations people, and I watched something the other night that really amplified the racism in this country towards our First Nations people. It was a documentary called The Australian Dream, which is about Adam Goodes, a AFL player, and his experience dealing with racism. And just a horrendous display of hate... Every time he would step on the field, he was attacked with racism and aggression and just horrendous things that you think can't be real. And yet you watch this documentary and it's just horrendous. And it's such an important thing to watch. I'm not hugely interested in football, but I found this documentary very important. I highly recommend it. It is a beautiful documentary, heartfelt, heartbreaking and powerful.
Bronte:
Chats with Creative's is produced by Anahata Collective, music is by the wonderfully talented Rick Scully. Please rate, review, subscribe. Let me know how you like it. Let me know your thoughts. Holler if you want to chat. I'll catch you next week.
Bronte:
Is it Pineal or Peniel?
Sarah:
That's the million dollar question.
Bronte:
I truly don't know.
Sarah:
I'm going to say Pineal.
Bronte:
Did you ever say it in the show?
Sarah:
I don't think my character did. I remember we had a conversation about whether like, what was the right way to say it. So I thought it was Pineal.
Bronte:
I thought it was Penial.
Sarah:
I think it was a toss up between Pineal and Pineal. And I think Pineal turned out to be the correct way. It has that name because it's shaped like a pine, like a pine cone. So some people are saying Pineal. And I think that's also acceptable. It's such an obscure part of the body. I think if we just pronounced it...
Bronte:
Yeah, but anyone that saw the show will be like, "oh yeah, this is how you pronounce it." And I'll be like, "I don't remember how anyone said it."
Sarah:
No, neither do I having been in it, I'm not even sure that I got to say it.
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RESOURCES
Just Not That Many Campaign
@justnotthatmany #justnotthatmanyThe Great Australian Play
Written by by Kim Ho
T: @kimho_au
I: @maybekimho
Directed by Saro Lusty-Cavallari of Montague Basement
@montaguebasementGET ON IT: The Australian Dream ~ Netflix
Head over to the @chats.w.creatives instagram page to stay up to date with episodes and guests we have coming up!
Follow our host Bronte Charlotte on Instagram @bronteandsunshine
Follow this week's guest Sarah Fitzgerald on instagram @saf_fitz
Pay The Rent. Saying Sorry Isn’t Enough.
We live, work and play on land that was forcibly taken from Aboriginal people. There has been no Treaty with the First Nations of this place and the effects of colonisation continue to this day. Act now in solidarity with Aboriginal people.
Pay The Rent HERE
Music by Rick Scully
