1.2 Stage Fright
With Tamilla Maslen
Tamilla Maslen and Bronte Charlotte chat about how crippling anxiety and stage fright can be for performers. They delve into their own experiences with stage fright and the physical and mental blocks that anxiety forms, and how it impacts creativity, joy and expression as creative humans.
During this episode we discuss
[03:35] Tamilla’s history of stage fright and the vulnerability that comes with it
[06:07] Bronte’s history of stage fright and the performance that started it all
[09:31] Nervous energy, the loss of control, and how nerves physically affect our bodies
[13:37] Rituals, joy, and the importance of practice
[15:41] Inspiration from live performances and categorizing art
[19:03] Art and creation coming from yourself, for yourself
[22:56] ‘Disentangle’
[24:58] GET ON IT: Jenny Slate’s Comedy Special on Netflix, Stage Fright
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Bronte:
This is Chats with Creatives, a podcast where we talk about living as creative humans in a capitalist society, the experiences we have and insecurities we hold, a place where we have open and inclusive conversations to learn, understand, educate and connect.
My name is Bronte and this is Stage Fright with Tamilla Maslen. Tamilla is one of my nearest and dearest. She's an absolute gem with the most wondrous voice that I could just listen to for hours. I'm super excited about talking to Tamilla today because we're going to delve into something that burdens a lot of performers, but it can be sometimes a little bit taboo to talk about. I often feel like there's an expectation to be super confident as a performer and so often you're in a completely vulnerable and receptive state. So, I mean, I'm quite familiar with stage fright. Sometimes it's incredibly crippling and wrapped up with all sorts of anxieties and self-worth. So we talk today about our experiences with stage fright and how we deal with it to continue moving throughout our days.
Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land where I'm recording this podcast, the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation. Welcome Tamilla.
Tamilla:
Thank you. That was beautiful.
Bronte:
How are you?
Tamilla:
I'm good.
Bronte:
What's your morning been like?
Tamilla:
I woke up early-ish. I played the piano a bit, did a little bit of exercise... which ruined me! And then I came here to see you.
Bronte:
Wonderful. How did we meet?
Tamilla:
We met five years ago.
Bronte:
We've been together for so long.
Tamilla:
We have. We Did a short course at VCA for Acting.
Bronte:
The Foundation Studio 21. Love it.
Tamilla:
Yes. Specifically, I think the way we were introduced was I was eating a salad and it was raw vegetables like spiralised. And you were like, are you raw?
Bronte:
I just like, walked over to you, bee-line, was like 'are you raw.'.
Tamilla:
Yep. And I was like, no.
Bronte:
I can see what you're eating, girl!
Tamilla:
Yes. Bronte connects with people via food.
Bronte:
Oh my God. That's exactly right. I think that's my language of love. I very much, I have always done this. I've always cooked things for people. In fact, I've cooked for you today.
Tamilla:
You have! You made banana bread.
Bronte:
I've started the habit of cooking food for, or like a little vegan treat, for guests. But, I wonder how long it will last. Because I do get to a point where I'm like, OK I've eaten four pieces of banana bread in like two days and it's kind of like, oh I can't just, you know, not eat it. So I didn't know when I met you... I didn't know that you were a singer. It probably wasn't until, like, it would have been like eighteen months after we'd met, and I was like maybe at your house and you kind of like sung something. And I was like, excuse me. Is that your voice? Your voice is amazing. I want to remember the first thing that I heard you sing, and it must have been a song that was like really popular on the radio at the time. I think it was like a Lady Gaga song or something. And you had this version of it that was just like, oh my God! So good. And then I was really surprised that it wasn't something that you kind of... You sing, you actively sing but you don't perform. And my understanding is that that comes a lot from having stage fright or feeling quite vulnerable on stage, because obviously singing is like many other types of performance and art. It's very, very vulnerable and very personal.
Tamilla:
Yes, exactly.
Bronte:
Do you remember the point that stage fright began for you? or was it just a forever thing?
Tamilla:
It's kind of been a forever thing. I've always loved to sing, but it was more, I guess for myself. As a child I was kind of pushed to perform because I could sing. And I think that for me was terrifying and sort of that fear kind of carried my entire life. But, it is something that I love and I love to do, and it's something that I want to share. It's just taking that next step into showing people my voice or performing my own work.
Bronte:
Yeah, because I remember we used to talk about you and another good friend of ours who we also met at the VCA Foundation course... You both sing and you guys, sometimes you'll sing together and you'll harmonize and it's like angels singing in my ears. You guys used to talk about like, oh maybe one day we'll go on the street and go busking or something or like we'll record something together. Is it different for you recording something versus performing live or is it still a similar, kind of, fear of vulnerability that comes up?
Tamilla:
I think in different ways. So, recording would be a much more intimate space. I think. If I was by myself it's a little bit different to having people in the room. But the people in the room would probably be people I was comfortable with and who may have heard the music I was recording before. With performing... Yeah, that's a different... That's much, much more vulnerable because I'm sort of putting myself out there to be disliked or criticised for my work. I do, like I have performed before, and that's sort of where the crux of the stage fright/performance anxiety comes in, with like, public performances. But even sometimes I struggle with, you know, people I know or even performing to just a small group of people for the first time. It's just that vulnerability, I think, for me is something I struggle with.
Bronte:
Well, I'm really, I'm super excited because I suggested that maybe today you could play some of your music or sing some of your music. And I'm so happy that you've agreed! So at the end of this podcast will have a little clip of Tamilla singing. And it's... I'm so excited for everyone to hear it, oh my God! Yeah. A little snippet of love and joy.
But that's a hard thing to do as well. Like, you could be totally comfortable with me, but it's still a very scary thing to put yourself out there and to know that people will listen to it and hear it and have an opinion, I suppose. My stage fright is a little bit different to, like, the vulnerability thing. I think the moment that I kind of was like, oh, no, this is not good... I was in high school and I sung all the time, like I was in all of the choirs, I at the time was a trained opera singer. I was singing opera when I was a teenager.
Tamilla:
I didn't know this is about you.
Bronte:
Yeah. It's a well-kept secret. In year 11 and 12, music was one of the subjects that I did in my high school. And then in year 12, I dropped ancient history for music extension. And my instrument in music extension was my voice. So all of my assessments, I would sing. And I just remember that there was this one night where there was, you know, a big performance on in our performing arts center. And I got up and had my singing teacher on the piano and I started singing. And I got about two lines into the first verse and I blanked. And my singing teacher kept playing the piano... And I kind of looked at her and I was like, just had this look of pain on my face. And I was like, I don't know what comes next. I have completely dropped the words. I have no idea what comes next. And so she kind of stopped, she was like, 'we'll just start again, we'll just start again.' And so she started again. And again, two lines in to the first verse I completely fucking froze. My mind went blank. I had no idea what words came next. I couldn't even think of what the chorus was. I literally just started humming the tune because I was like, I'm up here and people looking at me and I'm freaking out. So... 'hmm hmm hmmm' It was just like, the most embarrassing moment. And since then I have not been able to sing on stage. Like I can't do it. I will sing at home in the shower. I will sing as a warm up if I have to. I will sing loudly and badly at a party to music that's playing. But I can't sing on stage. That's where my stage fright comes in.
It's not necessarily a fear of vulnerability. It's a fear of forgetting the lyrics, it's forgetting the lyrics. And it's kind of flowed into my acting in that one of my biggest fears with acting is to blank on stage. And it's happened before. I think that's something that's pushed me. Singing I don't have to do. But acting is my passion and I need to, like, push through that fear of losing my lines. So something that has come from that is that I work incredibly hard on text and text becomes the the way that I create a character, and the expression. And the text is the thing that is the base for everything else. Because if I know it so well and so deeply in my mind and in my body, I can't forget a line and that won't happen to me ever again. It does, but it's not as bad as singing like singing I just refuse to do.
Tamilla:
How did you feel before the performance?
Bronte:
I think I was nervous. I think about that night and I know for a fact that I was sitting with two of my friends who weren't like the best influence. Like we were all a bit like ratty when we were together. We kind of like, wouldn't focus and we were kind of chatting off to the side. And then my name was called and I had to get up and sing. I wasn't focused and I wasn't preparing myself to sing. I had warmed up and I was ready to do the thing. But something about maybe the focus...
Tamilla:
You weren't like mentally prepared. You hadn't taken that time.
Bronte:
Yeah. And it totally just came back to bite me on the butt.
Tamilla:
Yeah, I understand. I think that... As well as, kind of like a fear of loss of control, especially because it took you so off guard. They are traumatizing experiences. And mostly a big reason for my performance anxiety and stage fright is... Because I've had experiences in the past where I have been so nervous that, you know, by myself, I could perform the song perfectly, but on stage because nerves change, changes your breathing.Just the way I perform is terrible. And I feel so so upset at myself and so traumatized from the experience, I kind of never want to do it again. And so that just like feeds into that fear of like, if I get up and I'm nervous, I'll be bad.
Bronte:
But nerves is kind of a really natural response to putting yourself out there and getting on stage and being looked at. Nerves is such an interesting thing, because the way that I've had to kind of learn to deal with nerves, is to translate that energy so that it's not nervous energy, it's exciting energy. And it's a buzz that that will help me to focus. And that's all in my head. Like, if I am not in a headspace to be thinking that that particular day... Like there were days when I was on tour last year, doing educational Shakespeare for high schools, and I would have this kind of like heightened energy because maybe the kids were being really awful, and maybe heckling like something like wasn't very lovely, or I was feeling not very good about myself and my performance... And that nervous energy of being like, oh, I'm nervous, I'm not going to do well, I'm not going to remember my lines or I'm not going to... Yeah, essentially I'm going to make a fool of myself. Sometimes that can translate into being more of an energetic bubbling and an excitement. But oftentimes, if you don't have that ability in that moment to translate that energy, it does come out being very, very much a nervous energy. Which, as you said, it affects your breathing, it affects your concentration, it affects your body language and the way you hold yourself. And then that, in turn, can create like a cyclical effect, a cycle effect of like... You're hunching over maybe, so then your thoughts a little bit more compact, and your body is reading your body language as 'I don't want to be here, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be here.' And it's fight or flight.
Tamilla:
And it's also your like, as you were saying, the way we talk to ourselves before and after a performance is really important. So the way we talk ourselves through that nervous energy... Because my first response, and I think anyone else's first response, when we are nervous or anxious is, you know, that fight or flight thing. So you're going to run away, which is my thing, avoid. Or you do get up, but you're kind of frozen. So yeah, being really kind to yourself and trying to work through that and even yeah, finding ways to cope with that and knowing it's a normal part of any performance... It's natural. It's a good thing.
Bronte:
A teacher of mine once said, "when you're anxious, it's because you care so much." So when you are nervous about a performance, it's because you care about it. You care about doing a good job or doing the original song justice, or the original playwright justice. Like to do the character justice. You want to do well. And that's not a bad thing. It's not bad to be anxious about that or nervous about that. It's just as you said, it's about being able to talk to yourself in a compassionate way to help yourself move through that and kind of come out the other side. And then again, once you're out the other side to then continue being compassionate. If you feel like you didn't do the work you wanted to, to understand that everyone has off nights. Or everyone has performances or moments or pieces of work that they think are shit, that aren't. Just, what they are in the moment.
Tamilla:
Exactly. And they're not a reflection of you as a person. I think our self esteem is so caught up in our performance. In a singular performance. Or you know, we'll beat ourselves up about it. But yeah, the way we talk to ourselves through it and after it, maybe we can make it easier the next time we get up on stage.
Bronte:
Do you have something in your day that you just have to do? And if you don't do it you don't feel right?
Tamilla:
I don't. But I think it's really important to have daily rituals. They keep you grounded.
Bronte:
But you would sing every day?
Tamilla:
I mean. Yeah, in terms of singing, I would sing every day. Not like an active, you know, like a proper practice, but I would sing every day to things or to myself, or... Yeah, that's probably the only, It might be the only consistent thing I do. Other than eat.
Bronte:
Oh and we love food. Is there something that you're really proud of that you've done creatively, even if it's not to do with singing?
Tamilla:
That's a good question. I think the most proud I feel of myself, or like something I am proud of, is usually when I finish a song that I've written. Or I learn a new piano piece. Because I don't perform a lot, I don't show the world a lot of my work, it's usually very small things like that. It's a lot of joy when I finish something. I feel very capable.
Bronte:
That leads me on my next question! What brings you joy, creatively?
Tamilla:
Usually playing! Like just being really playful with things, experimenting, trying. You know, like trying new sounds. I think for me as an artist, I still don't know what kind of sound that I would like to produce or what kind of thing I enjoy making the most. I'm still figuring that out. So that brings me a lot of joy. You know, maybe I tap into something I haven't before, a different sound... I think, even just being able to do different things with my voice is really fun, like runs or singing higher or performing a harder song or nailing a cover or something like that.
Bronte:
Do you go to a lot of live music or performances? Live theatre?
Tamilla:
Probably not any more than anyone else. I do quite a bit like, I follow you along to a lot of things.
Bronte:
Oh! Yeah. Tamilla is like my number one fan.
Tamilla:
I go to a lot of Bronte's works. I go to, a lot of like theatre we see together. So I guess I do. I think that's something that I am interested in a lot. Yeah I do do live gigs. I wouldn't say that I'm at them all the time though, but I do, I do really enjoy them. I do go.
Bronte:
Do you find that when you go and see something live you're quite inspired?
Tamilla:
Yes, very, very, very inspired. A concert I went to... I've been to like a few, but a lot of women performers often really inspire me. There's an artist, her name is SZA. She's sort of like alternative RNB. I love her sound, I loved her concerts. I loved the way she moved and it's so different from anything I can do. So just going and hearing that was so inspiring for me. I felt like uplifted for days. Yeah. And even like, I wanted to play around with her sound and the way she used her music. And yeah, I've been to other performances where I feel the same thing. I can just completely zone out and just take in what they're doing.
Bronte:
I was listening to the Guilty Feminist the other day and in one of their most recent episodes that they've released, there was this woman who performed at the end. And her sound was so out of this world. She is classified as 'World Music' because she uses a lot of traditional South Asian/Indian kind of influences. Like, she plays traditional instruments and sometimes will be singing ancient poems... Her voice was just so amazing. She talked about how she didn't classify herself as, you know, in inverted commas, 'World Music...' that she was just making music that she enjoyed and bringing to life these instruments that sometimes can get a little bit forgotten. Like, when people typically start learning music, they learn guitar or piano or violin. And this woman, Amrit Kaur, she was just so amazing. I'll pop her on the show notes so everyone can listen to her. But she was singing with this very like traditional South Asian sound to her voice. And then she would... So she would be singing in the native tongue of like a poem that she'd written music to. And then she would switch into singing in English in a very pop kind of way. And then she would just start singing in this falsetto that was like, an incredibly high soprano. And just the ability of her like changing between genres was so cool. And I just love that she was like, "I don't classify myself as 'World Music', like, that's what, people put me into that box... But that's not what I see the music that I make as. It's just whatever sounds that I feel like making."
Tamilla:
That's exactly how I feel. I wouldn't... I have no idea what my genre is. I don't know what box I fall into. And a lot of people do ask, you know, like what type of music do you sing or what is, kind of, 'your sound.' And I don't know. I'm just... like I sing what I feel. I think my voice definitely has a specific tone to it. So, you know, I'm probably more inclined to sing something ballad-y than I could, you know, something really upbeat and pop-y. But yeah, I wouldn't define myself either. It's kind of what you feel.
Bronte:
Speaking of you singing... You're going to perform in a moment... How do you... How do you feel about that?
Tamilla:
Well, I feel okay about it now. It's just you and me in the room. I think, I do feel very, very nervous that everybody else is going to hear it. It may not be something that everybody likes...
Bronte:
Oh but fuck them. I mean, thank you for listening, but fuck you if you don't like Tamilla's voice... Nah I'm kidding! You don't need to!
Tamilla:
But you don't need to. It may not be your song. But when I showed you, I showed you a few recordings before I started. For me that sort of, got the most nerve wracking bit out of the way because you heard what the song was like. And you heard my voice in it. So I feel okay now. Yeah. So I am prepared. And I think that's important. I feel a little less nervous because I'm more prepared mentally.
Bronte:
I think it's a really important thing to, kind of, come to realize and to come to terms with, that if you're wanting to pursue a creative life, you're essentially pursuing a vulnerable life. And it's not bad or wrong to feel like being vulnerable is a hard thing to do. Like, that's a very normal and natural way to respond to the sensations and the feelings that come with vulnerability. Because vulnerability, if anyone's read Brene Brown... it comes hand in hand with shame. So there's always this fear that if you don't do a 'good job,' or what you feel like is a good job, and a real representation of you and your skill and your talent and your ability, that you will feel ashamed that you didn't. And it's so... It's so important to be able to recognize that, and then have a 'fuck you' attitude and just be like, 'nup, right now I'm not in approval mode, I'm in task mode. And my task is to sing or perform or read a poem or whatever it is. That's my task and I'll connect to it and do it truthfully and honestly. But I don't need anyone else to validate me because I know that what I'm doing is exactly right for me.'
Tamilla:
Exactly. And I think we lose connection with our work because we're so preoccupied with everyone else's perception of it. And that's where a lot of shame comes from. When you stuff up perhaps on stage, it's like, what do THEY think? As opposed to, how did I actually, you know, how was I feeling? And then, like, talking yourself through that.
Bronte:
Yeah. And also things can move very slowly. Like, you see people get on stage or on screen or start their singing career, I suppose, or performing career, artistic career, quite late in life. Because the whole run up to that point in their life has been full of, 'uh, I don't really have that 'thing' or that spark that I need.' But you don't need that. Your art is your art. And it's great in in whatever way that it kind of comes out of you.
Tamilla:
And you, even if you are pursuing something creative, it doesn't need to be on a grand scale. You know, you don't need to be successful in a huge way for it to be fulfilling.
Bronte:
Or even for it to be impactful. It could just be impacting your own self by being like, I've created this thing and I know that I have and that's it. That's all needs to be. I find it quite heartwarming and very inspiring when I see someone who's creative practice is purely just for them. That kind of means that it probably is coming from the most honest place, that it's an expression of themselves. Art can also be for the masses and for others... It can be for like learning purposes, education, can be anything. But the art has to come from somewhere. And if it's coming from you being made for others, it's never going to be as honest as coming from you just because it's bubbling up inside you and needs to come out. On that note... shall we have a sing? I'm not going to sing.
Tamilla:
Sure.
Tamilla:
[Singing] Trying to control the looks on my face, I think I might lose you every day. Keeping myself and my mind in check, compartmentalize it. You're playing games with my head. I know reality is sobering. What did I expect? How much am I giving away? How much will you take if you push it down? Please don't push me away. You give me looks that I think about for days. Please, take it away. Everyone I talk to, they all say the same thing. Disentangle from him. Disentangle from him.
Bronte:
I just love your voice so much.
Tamilla:
Thank you. Thank you. That's very sweet.
Bronte:
I feel like I need a moment just to... process it.
Tamilla:
Just to process that.
Bronte:
It's just so lovely to hear you sing it. It always is. And I feel very privileged that you shared with me today.
Tamilla:
Thank you. I wanted to share with you.
Bronte:
I wanted you to, too! Bloody do it girl!
Tamilla:
I'm glad to have shared with you! This is actually the first time anything that I've written will be public. So that's very exciting.
Bronte:
Oh my goodness! So exciting.
Tamilla:
It's only a snippet, but it's kind of, I guess, that's my sound right now. And that's kind of the stuff I'm writing. So, it was honest. Yeah.
Bronte:
Funnily enough, there's a comedy special out on Netflix at the moment called Stage Fright. It's Jenny Slate's comedy special. And along with her stand up, it's interwoven with interviews of her family in her family home, and interviews of her prior to the filming of the show. She talks about her experience with stage fright and her kind, of experience growing up in a haunted house. And it's a really beautiful special. If you enjoyed what Tamilla and I were talking about today in terms of our personal experiences with stage fright, seeing someone like Jenny Slate talk about it is really, really, really beautiful too! So give it a watch. Otherwise, stay creative!
Bronte:
Chats with Creatives is produced by Anahata Collective. Music is by the wonderfully talented Rick Scully. Please rate, review, subscribe. Let me know how you like it. Let me know your thoughts. Holler if you want to chat. I'll catch you next week.
Bronte:
(To Viggo the kitten) If you sit on my lap, that's OK, but if you're on the desk pressing buttons, that's not OK. Oh yeah, just shove your butt in my face.
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RESOURCES
SZA
@szaGET ON IT: Stage Fright, Jenny Slate’s Comedy Special ~ Netflix
Head over to the @chats.w.creatives instagram page to stay up to date with episodes and guests we have coming up!
Follow our host Bronte Charlotte on Instagram @bronteandsunshine
Follow this week's guest Tamilla Maslen on instagram @tamillamaslen
Produced by Anahata Collective @anahata_collective
Music by Rick Scully
