1.5 Behind the Camera

With Kristi Gilligan

Kristi Gilligan and Bronte Charlotte have an intimate and empowering chat about working both in front of and behind the camera as female presenting creatives. They discuss gender equality and gender stereotypes in the film industry, the lack of diversity behind the camera and how we can start to make active changes even lower down the chain, Kristi’s transition from pursuing acting to becoming a successful 2nd Assistant Camera, and what a 2nd AC actually does!

During this episode we discuss:

• [02:48] How being vegan on set became impossible, The Warehouse Workshop, and the start of Kristi’s interest behind the camera

• [06:18] Kristi’s history as a second camera assistant, how COVID-19 affected the film she was working on at the start of 2020, and what does a 2nd AC actually do!?

• [10:18] An agent's advice on how to move interstate for acting, how Kristi fell out of love with acting, and how working behind the camera compares to acting in terms of career stability

• [15:57] The pros and cons of being in the film industry, social lives and how they can become non-existent when working, and the expectation on you as a part of the crew

• [20:06] Kristi’s first gig: how she got it and where it took her

• [22:40] Women working behind the camera in film, classic ‘gender-roles’ on set, and why people comment on the fact a woman is working as a 2nd AC

• [27:59] Diversity on set, and how can we create a greater support system for ALL minorities - racially-diverse  and gender-diverse people - to be succeeding in their chosen careers paths

• [33:55] Recognising when you are consuming female and non-binary driven stories, films, TV shows, and how the content, characters and relationships will be different to male driven media

• [35:30] The transition from being an actor to a crew member and how expectations in your appearance and attitude change, Bronte’s personal experiences of body politics as a female presenting actor, and the people who are actively hiring and casting people of diverse backgrounds and genders

• [42:55] Habits, Ladies in Black, and the joy of creativity

• [46:20] GET ON IT: The Guilty Feminist Podcast

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Bronte:
This is Chats with Creatives, a podcast where we talk about living as creative humans in a capitalist society, the experiences we have and insecurities we hold, a place where we have open and inclusive conversations to learn, understand, educate and connect. My name is Bronte and this is Behind the Camera with Kristi Gilligan. Kristi and I met a long time ago, we did a film and television internship together on the Gold Coast... It must have been back in 2013. Where we did all sorts of classes on acting and script work, but also we learned how to work behind the camera. We were making our own short films, we were doing all of the lighting, the editing, the filming. So it was a really kind of all round experience that, I guess, was kind of the starting point of Kristi moving behind the camera. And since then, she's moved to Sydney, she's been working as a second assistant camera for several years now. She's worked on different things... Her first job was a Doctor Doctor, and since then she's also worked on Ladies in Black. She's working on a film at the moment that we talk about a little bit throughout the chat, but at this point we can't share what that is. But we're sharing what we can. This is a really interesting discussion about moving from being an actor to being behind the camera, especially as a woman and the kind of pressures that are on you as a female to perform in a certain way and present yourself in a certain way, to then taking all of that pressure off and getting to just work hard and do your job. We talk about the difference in representation on set, who kind of dominates the scene, who tends to making the decisions. For me, I learnt so much in this discussion with Kristi. It was such a joy to be able to catch up, we only get to see each other once every year, or once every few years. But every time it's always just so beautiful. Kristi is full of life and joy and generosity, and she's so precious to me. It has been a long, a long time coming I think, having these discussions with each other. Just before we begin, I would like to acknowledge that I'm recording this podcast of the stolen lands of the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation. If there are any First Nations people listening today, thank you so much for listening. Welcome, Kristi! Oh, my God. How long have you had your snake?

Kristi:
It's been two years now. Yeah, it's crazy. Her name's Narl. She's a character. She's got a personality, which you wouldn't have thought.

Bronte:
That's so funny. How have you been? How is everything?

Kristi:
Good. Yeah. I mean it's been interesting not working at all, but it's actually been strangely quite enjoyable in a way. You know, I spent like three weeks like, on the couch and I was like, "oh, okay, well, going to have to do something now." So yeah, I'm good! Keeping busy. There's this bit in my brain that's like, "surely we're done now, right? Like, we're done now. It's been like three months. We're done, right?" And then...

Bronte:
What have you been doing this week?

Kristi:
Not a lot. I'm kind of in this weird period where, because work keeps getting pushed, I like, I've tried to tie up all of the things that I needed to do and I'm like, "OK, I'm going back to work." And then all of a sudden it's like, "you're not going back to work." I'm like, oh okay... So I'm sort of like, weirdly floundering and then realized this week I've got to get over it. So, yeah, I'm getting my car serviced, I'm being an adult, going for a lot of walks and slowly started sort of seeing friends. So I went for a road trip on the weekend, went down to Berry to get donuts with a friend of mine.

Bronte:
Oh! Are you... You're not vegan anymore?

Kristi:
No... it was just, it was really hard on set. Because we get, getting catered for, they'd be like, "here's the salad you can eat!" I'm like, "guys, I need like, I need a lot of energy, I eat a lot of food." So yeah, I just sort of slowly slipped off the bandwagon. I just try not to eat anything but fish, and I'll normally eat a lot of fish when I'm working for protein and then, I don't want I'm not working.

Bronte:
Is that a canned coffee?

Kristi:
Yes! They're so good! They're awesome.

Bronte:
Really? Is it just an iced coffee essentially? Or is it like...

Kristi:
Yeah just an iced long black. I got them in Japan and they've just started bringing them out at Woolies now. They're so little but when you finish it the can is really heavy. It really freaks me out. I'm not sure why.. I'm gonna have to cut what one open and have a look. I'm not sure why it's so heavy.

Bronte:
It's like weighted. I was in Japan like, oh my God, it must've been 2010 and they had canned hot chocolates in vending machines.!

Kristi:
I got really obsessed with Pocari Sweat. Did they have that were there? It's like this electrolyte drink but it's just like, a really random name and I ended up getting quite obsessed with it and being like, "I feel really tired. I need a Pocari Sweat." How good is Japan, though!

Bronte:
It's so nice. How did we meet?

Kristi:
We met when I was still interested in acting. We met on the Gold Coast at an acting course, and there was like a little posse of four of us, and we just instantly bonded and wouldn't leave each other, which is great. I look back on that time so fondly, like it was such a great course.

Bronte:
It was just six months, but all of my editing skills come from that course. All of my knowledge of Premier Pro and even like, do you remember the voice over thing that you and I did? The Brave scene, where we had to do a Scottish accent Oh, my God.

Kristi:
Yeah I loved that! "I am Merida!"

Bronte:
I then we had to like, put in all of the sound effects! Oh, that shit is like, that's my base of knowledge right there.

Kristi:
I loved doing that. That, I think, is probably the start of my interest of moving behind the camera, though. Because, yeah, I felt like I got to do a lot of camera stuff there and doing a lot of the data wrangling, I feel like that's kind of how I got interested in it. And then I would go out with Dave, with the music video, and that was like camera assisting 101 for me.

Bronte:
Can you give us a little rundown of who you are and your history in the creative industries?

Kristi:
Yes, I am a second assistant camera. I've been doing that for about, I think this year is my fourth or fifth year. So I'm still relatively new. But I sort of started out just emailing people and volunteering. And then very quickly from there, someone that I met got me into an attachment program which was on House of Bond. Yeah, and I kind of just went from there. I did video split for about a year or so. And then, I've done three seasons of Doctor Doctor, and season 2 was my first gig assisting, which was a big learning curve. And then, I've just been sort of assisting mainly television, a couple of commercials here and there, and then I was on a film when COVID happened.

Bronte:
Oh my God, what happened there?

Kristi:
That was really weird. We just, I mean, obviously, we were tracking it quite closely, sort of as it was all happening. But our director... His wife had just given birth, so they had a newborn in Sydney. And so, we never actually had anyone contract a case. But I think that was just like,, a really close sort of call with contact with people who had contact with someone who'd had contact. So it was like six degrees of separation. And so, he just decided that, you know, he's got a newborn at home and it was probably safer just not to continue.

Bronte:
Is that the job that you're going back to at some point soon?

Kristi:
Hopefully yeah! The plan is to go back and they obviously want everyone to come back. I guess it just depends how long it's going to be. They've kind of said if another job comes up and you want to take it, take it.

Bronte:
Far out. What exactly does second camera assistant involve?

Kristi:
The most notable thing we do, which is always what I say to people, is we clap the slate in front of the actors face before they go!

Bronte:
Yes! And you get paid really well for it, right?

Kristi:
Definitely. I mean, more than the actors sitting on the other side of it, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, that's kind of the biggest, I guess, people think that's the most exciting thing we do. But the way I kind of feel about it is, it's like you're a surgeon's assistant. So like, you're building a camera and everything, it's like "here's this, here's that, here's that, I'll take this..." We mark all of the actors with block through's. We change cards out and pass data off to be managed. Yeah, and we do sort of, all of the camera sheets. So, you know, if we have to go back and film something, we've got all of the data there. We know what lens we shot it on. We know stop we were sitting at. We know what the focus was at. We liaise with sound and VFX and quite a lot of other departments. Like grips, particularly. It's sort of a... assistant. It's in the title.

Bronte:
Yeah, it sounds like there's just like heaps you've kind of got to have a really good handle on to function. Is it quite different to first camera assistant?

Kristi:
Yeah. So first assistant camera is... so we're kind of the clapper loader and first assistant camera is the focus puller. So they're the ones that actually keep everything sharp in front of the shot and put all the lenses on and stuff. And then, you know, there's operator and DP from there. So, the roles are sort of quite different, but every level really builds on everything else. So everything I'm learning as I'm coming through, I need to know when I'm a focus puller.

Bronte:
Yeah, right. So are you kind of hoping to kind of move up, or change position at all?

Kristi:
Yeah, definitely. When I first got into the industry, I was only interested in being a career focus puller. Yeah, I don't know why! I mean, it's a horrendously stressful job. I don't know why I want to do it. It's literally like, nowadays everyone has these massive monitors and can be like, "that was out of focus!" I have no idea why I want to do it. But yeah, it really interests me. And sort of, the more that I've been on set around people, the more I'm like, "oh, operating could be cool... shooting could be cool." Who knows. Again, I've been reflecting in this time and I was talking to a friend of mine about it the other day and we were just like, "what even do we want to do, where do we want to go?" And I got into the game quite late, so if it's like focus puller, it's like, I would be like a 50 year old starting DP. I'm like, maybe I'll just leave that to the kids that are coming out of AFTRS now, shooting like really beautiful stuff and I'll just keep everything in focus.

Bronte:
So it sounds like you kind, of when you moved to Sydney, you kind of had a clear idea that what you wanted to do was assist... or did you follow curiosity and just like, get into it by chance?

Kristi:
Yeah, well, it was actually my agent who said, because I moved down here for acting, and my agent said, "when you come here, don't just have acting. Like find something that you want to do. Find your friends. Build a life here and then the acting will come from that. Otherwise you'll move to Sydney and that's all you'll be focused on and that's all you'll have." Which is really, really good advice. Not for my acting career, but really, really good advice.

Bronte:
For sure! And coming from an agent, that's nice.

Kristi:
Yeah. Like, it was kind of something that I never would have thought of. And so I was writing and trying to find a film crew to shoot things. And I couldn't really find a crew that I'd clicked with. And so I was like, "well, why don't I just go to film school and then I'll have all of these people there. And then when I write stuff..." You know, I was interested in directing as well, I was like, "then I'll have all of these people that I know of." And then from there, it kind of just, yeah, camera really took over and I kind of became obsessed with it.

Bronte:
So you moving from performing just kind of happened? But now you don't perform at all? Tell me about it because when we when we met, we were acting together and now it's not on your... And I know you're so great behind the camera. I experienced film sets with you, when you had never learnt anything before. And you were great. You just like, had this natural knack for everything behind the camera.

Kristi:
As kind of masochistic a job as assisting is, I think it just suits me really well. Like, I never really felt, I guess when I was on acting jobs, I never really like affiliated with the actors. I always found them like, I don't know, kind of like a lot of work and I just wanted to sit in the corner and just go do my job and then just go sit in the corner and read again. And I guess just like, being super busy and having a hierarchy and having like 12 million things to do, that really kind of just suited me. Yeah, I don't know how it happened. It sort of just, it kind of just came out of nowhere. Like, I guess I'd been acting since I was 12. Like I started doing theatre when I was 12. So, I think when I moved to Sydney I was 26, so that's like a long time to be super passionate about acting. And yeah, I guess just the more that I got involved with the crew side of things, the more I was kind of like, "oh this is really, this is really awesome." And obviously like, I mean it's hard to get into the industry behind the camera, but it's much easier than getting a job as an actor, let's be honest.

Bronte:
Do you feel like it's a more stable career than acting? Or is it just as kind of, flippant and up in the air?

Kristi:
No, I think it's just as flippant. I think that I just happened to come into the industry at a really good time where all of the... what do you call it... Like the state bodies were starting to do attachment initiatives and there was, sort of, money being put into there. And I think I also came in at a time where there just weren't a lot of people coming into the industry. A lot of people had left because unfortunately, when stuff like this happens, people go and move into other careers. So, yeah, I think it was just kind of like a perfect storm of timing and circumstance. And I just met some really great people at exactly the right time. And I sort of, haven't let go of those guys ever since.

Bronte:
It's so nice to hear all of this. It's just so... But also it's been what you've been doing for so many years that it's kind of like, from the outside, it seemed to flow quite naturally. Thinking about comparing when we met to right now... Your career has just like, flourished. It's just really nice to hear you talk about it.

Kristi:
I guess, we haven't really spoken about it in depth, have we?

Bronte:
No, not really. I mean, no. I'm always interested in what you're doing. I just, it's hard when you live away from someone... when you're seeing someone consistently and you're not catching up, you're kind of just, in each other's lives and you kind of flowing through life together. But when you have to like, see each other once every two or three years, there's a huge level of catching up and it's...

Kristi:
It makes it a bit more monumental. But also, I think, you know, you've got Instagram now. I've sort of been following you getting into yoga and teaching yoga and stuff like that, like you do kind of see that. And you're like, "oh, you know, that's what's happening." But I guess, yeah, you sort of see it from an outside perspective as opposed to...

Bronte:
And you're not big on social media, so it's actually quite hard to like follow you. You'll be off social media for a year and then you'll come back and you'll have like a completely new job and it'll be like... oh, cool. Or a snake, you'll just have a snake!

Kristi:
Yeah, it's also hard because my job like, I can't post anything about being on set. So, it's like you take these photos and then maybe 12 months later you can look back through them and be like, "oh yeah, this is out now. I can post this photo." But I mean, the job I'm on at the moment, it's literally like, "do not pull your phone out or someone will just throw you off set." Like, you just can't. So in a way, you can't talk about any of the stuff that you're doing and then by the time it's out, you're like, "oh, yeah, but that was like 12 months ago."

Bronte:
Oh my God, how do you feel about that? Is it hard or is it kind of just like you kind of go to work and you do your work and you can talk about it with the people there and then you come home and you just leave it? Or is it kind of hard not to share that with people around you?

Kristi:
I mean, I guess because it's my job, I don't find it as exciting, I think, as other people find it. And a lot of the people that I know in the industry so like, you know, you can talk about stuff more than you can with people outside the industry. But I mean, really all people want to know is about that actor and are they nice? And you're like, "yeah, sure, they're nice. Like, I have nothing to do with the actors, but yes, they're very nice when I've had to put tape of their feet." A lot of the people that I'm friends with now are in the industry. And so, you know, a lot of people know what's going on set. We're a very big rumour based industry. So you'll say something and someone's like, "oh yeah, I know I heard that from someone else."

Bronte:
Have you ever questioned this path?

Kristi:
Yeah. Yeah, sure. I definitely you know... We work very long hours and we work very hard days and we work in rain and mud and there's a lot of stress. And definitely I'm like, "why am I doing this?" But I don't think I would ever change it. Like, I really, I really love the industry. And I'm the same as you like, I'll do a job and then six months later I'm like, "I'm so bored." And this kind of industry is perfect because you'll be on a job with people for six months and then you won't see them for years and you'll go and work with a new group of people on a new job in new places. And definitely, I would say that the pros outweigh the cons. Yeah, there's no way I could ever work in an office or, you know, it would just kill me.

Bronte:
It's a certain type of person that can do it for a long amount of time and not have it affect them... Or even a short amount of time.

Kristi:
And I mean, you know, we work like 50 hour base weeks. So, the job that I was on before COVID, we were averaging, I think, 60 or 62 hour weeks. So like, it literally just takes over your life. There's definitely moments where you miss dinners and you miss birthdays and stuff like that because you're like, "oh, I'm sorry, we're doing an hour's overtime now." But yeah, then you get to do cool things like go to the Northern Territory, like I got to at the end of 2018. And you get to go to all these places that people aren't allowed to go and meet all of these people and see all of these really awesome things. I feel like I definitely had to learn how to not let my job overtake my life. Like there's definitely a period that I went through that... You do. You sometimes will just do nothing but work and then go home and sleep. I think it took me like probably 6 or 12 months to actually work out how to still have a life around working in this industry. And, you know, just going out for dinner on a random Wednesday night... You know, just making sure that you watch something before you go to bed or that you're still doing yoga on a Sunday because you can't do anything else. And, yeah, I think that's probably like the most recent challenge that I've come up against. And I sort of feel like I've gotten a good hold on it recently.

Bronte:
Do you feel like there's a lot expected of you in your job?

Kristi:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I feel like every job on the film set has a lot expected of them and it's a very high pressure job. But I don't know, in a way, I kind of, I kind of like that. I kind of like how structured everything is and how everyone has a job. And, you know, when you get on jobs and you're working with people who are like the best in their job, I think that's really kind of rewarding and that really makes you want to do better. And also, you'll meet people... Often, you know, there'll be two cameras and so you'll be working with another person and you're like, "wow, that person is so good at this. Like, how do I get better at that?" You know, I think that's really inspiring.

Bronte:
I've always kind of wanted to work behind the camera. I'm just not very good at it. Like, when we did the course on the Gold Coast, I didn't have a knack for it. I didn't understand what blue and orange light, how it would affect the shot. And I didn't understand what lens you'd need for different... I just, I couldn't, like, wrap my head around it. And I've been doing a lot of editing lately, I've been editing my - Leigh's - web series and I love it. And when we were doing the course together and we would edit stuff, I don't know if you remember this, but I had this weird thing where I would like, hit a spot and cut it, and it would be like perfect! On point! If I had a better understanding of technology... Like, even fucking doing this podcast like, my brain is exploding with the amount of technology that I need to know and it's not that much. But like, if I had a better understanding of what different files were and like, how to use different editing programs, I feel like I would attempt to follow a path that was more on the editing side of things. Maybe not fully behind the camera assisting stuff that you do... I don't think I understand enough of it or that I would pick it up quick enough to kind of do something like that. But if there was something that I were to do, it would be editing. But even then, I'm kind of like, "I'm not... I'm just not that tech savvy." So I'm kind of like, standing on stage, get me to stand in a spot and I'm like, "yep, can do!"

Kristi:
Yeah, but then I guess if you think about how you were before the Warehouse course that we did, like, you already know so much more than you did before you did that course. So, like, you are learning stuff and like you said, it's like that point in an edit where you just cut it and it's just, it is the right spot to edit. And so you already have that, kind of, intuition. I mean, I didn't know what I was doing when I got my first job. Like, I had no idea. I absolutely didn't know what I was doing and I've just learnt it as I went.

Bronte:
Did you say a friend of yours got you that job? Is that how that kind of happened?

Kristi:
I sent out an email blast to everyone that I could find. I was like, "I'm very new. You do not know me. Please let me come and show you that I will be willing to learn, but I don't know anything." I met a guy called Grant Wilson who got me out on a couple of commercials, and then he recommended me to a producer friend of his that was doing House of Bond. And they had... So normally, the state body will say, "OK, well you're shooting this show, here's three attachment programs." And they can put it into whatever department they want. And usually camera will get one on television because normally the person doing video split is quite new. So, yeah, I rocked up and had never been on a proper set before behind the camera! And they were like, "this is what you'll do. You must learn this immediately because in three days we're not helping you!" Because obviously, the camera systems are so busy. So they were like, "you have three days of me helping you and then that's it. You need to learn in three days."

Bronte:
So video split tends to be a new person coming onto the set learning a new skill?

Kristi:
Yeah.

Bronte:
So do you ever have people coming on that you kind of have to run through the ropes and then be like, "you've got this! See you later."

Kristi:
Yeah, pretty much. That's me! Doctor Doctor season 2, I'm like, "You have three days to learn this because I cannot focus on two jobs!" Yeah, it normally is. And it's normally bringing someone in and yeah, they're like me, they normally have no idea what's going on. If they do know what's going on, that's a big help and it's a very, very big learning curve. But it's a really good job because hopefully when you get used to it, you sort of stick by the monitor and then if there's any problems, you can fix it. But it means that you're right there with the directors and the producers and you'll do playback... So, you'll show them a take if the actor wants to see it or wants to go through something with the director. So you get to kind of watch the end product of everything quite intensely, which is awesome. That's one thing I miss now I'm seconding, you don't actually really get to see much of what you're shooting anymore. You don't get to hear the conversation with the director and the script supervisor, or the producers, or the actors getting feedback. You kind of miss out on that a bit as a second.

Bronte:
Do you have many people that you work with on the team, kind of like lower down the chain... Are any of them women?

Kristi:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I've worked with quite a few female focus pullers and there's a lot of female seconds at the moment. Like, I was thinking about this this morning and, I mean, I could think of six off the top of my head that I just could rattle off, of second AC's. Yeah, there's at least four focus pullers I can think of right now. And I've also been on jobs that have just had, I think I've only ever done one job where I've been the only female. So I've been in a lot of departments that have had other women in them. Not so much operators. I've done one job with a female DOP, all the others have been male. Yeah, like definitely focus pullers and second AC's. I've been surrounded by quite a few women. But it's something that always gets commented on. You'll be with another female second if you've got two cameras, and they're like, "oh, two female seconds!" So it obviously isn't the norm yet because it's still something that is commented on as being unusual.

Bronte:
Yeah. Do you think that there's any, like, gender bias around who people choose for jobs?

Kristi:
It's really hard to tell who does and doesn't get a job, and whether that's because of gender. I mean, it's definitely very political. But whether gender either consciously or subconsciously plays into that, it's really hard to say. I definitely know that there are quite a few male focus pullers out there who prefer to work with female seconds. Yeah, I mean, I guess I've never really asked why. I just feel like it's because we're more organized.

Bronte:
But even that in itself is like... In my head when I think of someone who works with continuity, in my head that's always a woman because they're kind of held up in society as someone who is more organized and can see the little details and stuff.

Kristi:
Yeah, I mean, there definitely is those solid gender ideas... Which is, you know, it's kind of changing. But yes, generally grips will be all male and electrics will be mostly male and... I think cameras is one of those ones that is starting to get diverse a little quicker. But yeah, the same with script supervisor, you know, makeup and costume is, you know thought of as generally female, even though there are men that work in those departments. But yeah, it is still pretty solidly blocked the way it has been.

Bronte:
Yeah. How do you feel about that? When you come into a space and that's kind of... It's kind of split. I mean, I guess if it's not really split in the camera department, I guess you're kind of viewing it from the outside.

Kristi:
But I mean, it is kind of weird, for it to be commented on that there are, there is more than one woman in the camera department. It's like, it's not like we're the only women on set. It's not like it's that weird for us. I don't know. Maybe just because costume and makeup have a tendency to kind of come in and go out... Whereas, the core group on set is grips, elecs, camera. So maybe that's why it's kind of like, "oh, a woman or more than one woman. That's interesting." We're definitely not drowning in a sea of men on set, which is I guess, always why it... it always felt weird that it was a comment thing like, "oh, there's two female seconds. How amazing!" It's like, well there's four female costume, and there's a female script supervisor and the director's female like...

Bronte:
Where do you think that comes from then? Do you think it's just...

Kristi:
I think it's come into the consciousness a lot more of people. I think there are, because obviously everything starts from the head of department down like, you know, I can't really affect any change in how many women get crewed in my department. But I think it's, I guess, more of an awareness that there is an inequality and there are people who are either recognizing that that is changing by commenting on it, or they're actively trying to change the balance. So I think it's probably just more at the forefront of people's minds.

Bronte:
Do you feel like your career progression has been affected by you being female, identifying as a woman?

Kristi:
I don't know. I mean, I was pretty lucky that I had a pretty easy entry into the industry. Like, I hit the right time and I found the right people very quickly. I'm very fortunate that it was pretty easy for me. You know, there are definitely people out there that worked for a couple of years with no pay and volunteering and doing free attachments and things. And I was spared a bit of that, fortunately.

Bronte:
I guess you'd already done a lot of that in your acting years. You'd already paid your dues.

Yeah, definitely. But I mean, there's always... I don't see any hindrances going forward as a female wanting to step up to be a focus puller. Like, it doesn't seem like that's an issue. But then I was listening to a discussion the other day with five female DOP's, and even in the comments, someone asked, "how do you go holding the heavy cameras during hand-held?" And it's like, "OK, we're still asking these questions." So I think, definitely going from a focus to a camera operator is very challenging because there's so much less opportunity for anybody. And then obviously, DOP on top of that is much harder. But I think the way that people are becoming DOP's is changing, too. So, whether that is advantageous to women or not, I guess we'll see. And this is only speaking from a New South Wales perspective, I'm not sure what the ratios are like in Melbourne or in Queensland or South Australia. Like a lot of those really kind of small industries, like South Australia and Tasmania, that have a lot less opportunities. It might be a lot tougher.

Bronte:
I was just wondering if there are many people of color on sets with you? Has there ever been a set that has just been completely white? And that's something you've noticed?

Kristi:
It's definitely more white and that is noticeable. And again, I was thinking about this recently, like even just thinking about how many women there were in my film school... In my intake, there were four out of 33, I think. Yeah. And then in terms of, you know, people of color, we were at 98% white. Yeah, it's very it's noticeable and the same on set. And that's kind of, there has been a big push recently to get more women into departments. And I guess that's one thing that I'm like... It's such a layered...

Bronte:
It's so layered. It's so layered. Yeah.

Kristi:
Yeah, you know, by just pushing women forward and getting women into roles, are we then excluding men of color, or people who don't conform to a gender. Are we pushing diversity or just women? And how does, how do we make a more diverse set without just specifically honing in on one particular issue?

Bronte:
It's so funny because it's almost like the people at the top of the chain that kind of get to make these decisions can't comprehend focusing on more than one thing at a time. They're like, "no, no, we just need to get more women right now." And it's like, yeah, I mean, that could come with many different things or like, you know... Do you just need women or maybe do you need some trans women on set? You know, or do you need to get people from all different places around the world to come and be on your set with you and, kind of, add to the building of this film that maybe, kind of, centers around - maybe - centres around a woman or whatever it may be. I kind of see that as well, that it's like, the focus is on one thing. And so people kind of get left behind.

Kristi:
It also ties into the other thing that I consistently think about and grapple with and kind of can't come up with a solution in my head. But this idea of driving a female forward approach and, you know, specifically just wanting to tick a box to say we have given X amount of positions to women. Like, by doing that and putting women in positions because they're a woman, if it's above and beyond their abilities, are we then setting women up to fail? And what does that say? Like if you give a DP who normally shoots, you know, one million dollar drama, and you come in and say, "we want a woman to shoot this 100 million dollar action film!" And obviously that has, you know, it's a different style, it's budgets much bigger... Like, you have to juggle so many more geese. If by putting a woman into that position and they fail, what does that say? I guess, do we need a more mentored approach? Where instead of just putting that woman to just shoot that film, is there a way that she can come through the pre-process with a DOP and see how you work with visual effects and pre-vis and come on and shoot a third camera or DP second unit? You know, how do we ensure that women are actually going to succeed and stay in these positions rather than, sort of... not necessarily setting them up to fail, but just giving them an opportunity that is because of gender. Not because they've had the support system coming through?

Bronte:
Yeah. And also that that support system needs to be there. Like, I think for men it's kind of like, it is just a thing. They do just kind of, go up the ranks and they get to the point where they're shooting 100 million dollar films because they've had all of those opportunities. Whereas a woman doesn't have those opportunities and, exactly what you're saying, if they can also be placed in those roles where they have that support, then it really is not necessarily about gender when they come to shooting the 100 million dollar film, it's about the art that's made. It's an interesting thing, how when a female driven movie or TV show or play, made by women, produced by women, female characters, female writers... If that doesn't succeed, it's always kind of, you know, in inverted commas "because it's run by women." Not because it didn't have the support or it didn't have the, it didn't have the promotion that something else would have had if it was run by men or if it was run by, you know, a famous white cis male actor putting this film on. Because it's been completely built by a team of women and maybe it doesn't succeed as much as the male counterpart to it...

Kristi:
Yeah, our gender is built into our success or our failure. You know, like if you're a cinematographer who's very successful, you're a successful female cinematographer.

Bronte:
Yeah. I think that's also very similar to your background as well. I was listening to something the other day that was saying, if you're a successful black actor, you're a successful Black Actor, you're not a successful Actor. That's how you're represented and how you're kind of, spoken about in the media or between people's conversations.

Kristi:
Which is so, like it's so fascinating about how inbuilt those kind of biases are. That it's something that is like, subconsciously and inadvertently, always there that people are ingesting and may not be conscious of. And also even things like, again, just having like female cinematographer discussions... And in my mind, one point of that is really good because it's like, we're giving these women a space to talk and they have a forum and a platform. But it's like, by just creating a group of women and not having a few women and a few men and people from diverse backgrounds all having that discussion together... Are we then still putting a caveat with the gender is important with this discussion?

Bronte:
I always notice on Q&A shows and stuff, if there is a male on the panel, they dominate completely. And so, if there was a space like that where it was, you know, a really... A kind of equal shared space, like how much would women in that space or the non binary people in that space be given actual space to speak?

Kristi:
I'm always grappling with that... With being like, "well, this is a positive, but..."

Bronte:
It's layered. It's so layered.

Kristi:
And so complex and beyond me.

Bronte:
Yeah, for sure.

Kristi:
I had a question for you actually. Can you tell when you watch something, when it's written by a woman? Is that something that registers with either the way it's directed or the way the female characters are written? Like, can you feel it almost?

Bronte:
Not always. But I think when I do, when I'm really resonating with something or a character, not even just a female character, but if there's like a character that's written really well and very honestly, usually I'm like, "oh, who directed this?" And a lot of the time it's... Or who wrote it... it's a woman because, there's a different... I find, that there's a different energy to what's being presented on screen or stage. Particularly on stage mostly. There's like less layers on stage in terms of less... That's usually like, you know, there's the writer, director, and then there's costumes, set, lighting and that stuff. But it's there's so many more layers in film. There's like all of the people that work to create the one shot. And then that's just a snippet of the story. And then it's been edited as well. There's a bit more for it to, kind of, be changed a bit from the original product. Yeah a lot of the time on stage... Sometimes I will go to something specifically because it is female driven or written by a woman or someone non-binary. I feel like I can always tell that there's a difference. Also just in the content. Sometimes the content is really different. What a what a female/non-binary person will write about. OK, I have one other thing I was curious about. How did the change of being a woman in front of the camera, in the performing space as an actor, how did that change to being someone behind the camera? Do you think that there were expectations as an actor to kind of present yourself in a certain way, or to do certain things as a female actor that kind of changed when you moved behind the camera?

Kristi:
Yeah, I mean, the the kind of ideology that you have to live up to as an actor is absolutely not there. And when I parted from my agent, the first thing I did was cut my hair and get a tattoo. Because, like, you don't realize how much being an actor controls your life. A person that I know, her agent would come to her haircuts to make sure that she didn't cut her hair too much. There's just this kind of like, I think it wasn't until I finally went, "I'm done with acting, I'm done with that." Put that aside and worked out what I wanted to do, that I kind of realized how possessed you kind of feel by other people's opinions. And obviously, like, you know, doing auditions and castings and stuff is just really horrific. And obviously, none of that comes into play as a member of the crew. Like, no one cares. You know, you can dress however you want. You can be covered in tattoos. You can shave your head. You know, that kind of freedom is there. And also, I think it, particularly in the camera department, because of how high stress it is, it's just all about your attitude. I mean, I feel like that's easier than trying to be thinner and taller and slightly more blonde than you are. It's much easier to just work harder. Yeah. So, I mean, I always joke that I've worked more in, you know, this is a couple of years ago, but I've worked more in two years behind the camera than I ever did as an actor in front of the camera. And you're in such a bigger a pool like, the pool is much smaller when it comes to crew. Because obviously you're going from crew to camera to second AC. You're honing yourself down. And so the market is much smaller than just being a white female... As an actor.

Bronte:
Yeah, I thought that may have been the case. I can just imagine, like, if I stopped acting and went to do something else, how my image just wouldn't matter as much. My presentation... even now I barely wear makeup. Sometimes I do my hair, but like it's almost not enough. Like if I go out, say I go to a theater show and I meet someone in the audience who could possibly cast me something and I haven't bothered to put makeup on or whatever it is. As much as that shouldn't matter, sometimes I'm like, "fuck, if I looked different... Or, if I wore something a little bit more slimming... Or, if I tried a little bit more..." Because when you're on stage or on screen, everyone's looking at this, everyone's looking at your face and your body and what you're doing with it. "If I looked different, would this change?" It's so fucked. It's kind of an awful way to live. I get so down sometimes because I'm constantly looking at myself and my body and my image. I'm just like, "why can't I just let it go?" Sometimes I can and sometimes I really can't.

Kristi:
Well, I think it's also because the pressure is coming from outside. It's not something that you're putting on yourself and you can learn to let go of it, it's something you're constantly reminded of every time you don't get a job, every time you don't get a callback. Like, you know, every time you leave the house, you have to be like, quote unquote "on." You know, some of it's conscious and some of it's also subconscious stuff that you don't really realize.

Bronte:
Yeah, it's been fully ingrained, especially when you've spent so long in the industry, or so long as a certain part of the industry... specifically as an actor or performer. It's very nice to hear that that's kind of been released for you.

Kristi:
Yeah, it's kind of like, I think we're at a point now where we're looking at things going, "why don't people on screen look different? Why aren't we getting different perspectives?" I kind of think Australia, unfortunately, is a little bit behind with the diversity of their casting. And I think a lot of us are kind of looking at that going, "why can't it change? And how do we make it change?" And these are really big complex questions that we have to sort of work through.

Bronte:
Yeah, I definitely feel super conflicted sometimes, when I'm like, "I look the way I look and that's great..." Because it's different to, you know, tall, skinny actors out there that get all the lead roles. And that's a great thing. And it's a good thing for people to see, that are kind of coming up through the ranks, and see an actor on stage that doesn't necessarily have this, you know, 'ideal appearance' or body or hair or face, whatever it is. But then other times it's the outside pressure of like, "would things be different if I were different?" When you come across someone who is really comfortable and empowered in their own body, I find that super empowering. And so, it's something I definitely aspire to be and to hold in a space of being an actor. To be comfortable and proud of who I am and what I am and my loud thoughts and opinions. And not change that just to get a role.

Kristi:
And hopefully, you know, because it is just a fact that when more women are in, holding positions of power, that flows on and there are more women in the crew. So, you know, if we can get past that specific approach and work into diverse backgrounds and gender nonconforming and various body types... Like if we can, if this is the start of that kind of flow on and the people in positions of power can then just go, "all of the people we're looking at are white, why don't we look at some other casting options apart from what we've been doing all these years?" And they are the decision makers and they're the ones that can bring forward the change then hopefully this is the start of a multilayered approach. It's yeah, it's hard... This is, particularly as well, in this period of time, in such a period of reflection, these kind of big complex questions are probably not something that I've really had to think much about before. You know, it's really hard t be kind of, quote unquote, "bottom of the food chain" and try and enact change. But then in the same fashion, you know, if I can't take a job because I'm on something and someone wants suggestions, there are people I can put forward that can help with that. You know, if I need a day off and need to be replaced, there are suggestions I can make for who that can be. Or sometimes, second AC's will be involved in who gets the attachment program if we have suggestions. And so, even from my position with little to no power, there are definitely things that can be done that can help, help make change. And then hopefully just, it's being conscious of that and being aware of what is happening and what needs to happen as I kind of move up through the ranks and just being very conscious about that. And there are people out there now doing that like, Bonny Elliot's a DP, and she actively looks to be really inclusive. She particularly pushes women in her crew. And so that's something that she's really passionate about. And she is in a position of power to be able to help drive that change and have the discussions with other DP's about that. Yeah, there are definitely people out there doing that. And I guess it's also reassuring to know that there are people out there that are batting for that change.

Bronte:
I'm going to move on to some mildly quickfire questions... They're not actually quickfire, so take as long as you want to answer them. Do you have something in your day that you just have to do? And if you don't do it, you don't feel right? Might be like having a coffee or meditating. I know you used to journal when you woke up...

Kristi:
I do not do that anymore because instead of journaling for 20 minutes, I now will get out of the door and 20 minutes from when I wake up. I will stick to what I know at the moment, which is Covid, and I've gotten really obsessed with running. And so, if I don't run, I'm like, "oh, I need to go for a run!" And so, yeah, that's something that I need to do at the moment. And then I do also meditate before bed. I think that's something that I've stuck to.

Bronte:
Are you running every day?

Kristi:
I was. And then my body was like, I am not happy with this. I'm now running every second day.

Bronte:
What is the thing that you're most proud of that you've done in your creative career?

Kristi:
I think I really, really liked working on Ladies in Black, which was the Bruce Beresford film. Yeah, Peter James shot that and he's like a stalwart of the industry. And so I guess, getting to like work with him and see his process, like, you know, he'll still do things like put stockings on the lenses and stuff. So I think... And the way that he lights is just phenomenal. So I think getting to work with him and watch him light was really amazing. And then also that was quite a difficult job in terms of the gear, we had two different sets of lenses and every time you changed the lens, you had to change the back of the matte box and the filter. And so it was quite complex. And I think the film looks beautiful.

Bronte:
What brings you joy creatively?

Kristi:
That's a really hard question to answer. I think for me on set, like it's getting to see something that you pull off that's really cool, because obviously it's such a collaborative industry. So I think like getting to see the product of what you shot and seeing, like, you know, some really cool acting or like a really cool camera move and stuff like that... OR really nice lighting, I get really obsessed with really nice lighting... Like that's really inspiring. But I think personally, I don't know if there's like one thing that brings me joy, but I think just like the necessity of being creative, I really feel that when it's not there. I got a bit burnt out after the film school because it was quite intensive. And that was three years ago. And I hadn't written since then. And it's only now that I've started writing again and I don't ever finish anything and I don't ever intend that anything will ever get made. But like, it's just kind of nice to actually have those ideas flowing. It's just something that you can kind of get on without doing it. But yeah, I know when we're at acting school, they were talking about your acting reservoir is a well. And you can't, you know, you can't just keep drawing from it. You've got to actually put into it. Otherwise you'll run out of water in the well. And I think that really is quite true, I think with everyone, not just with creative people. But yeah, you just can't keep giving out bits of yourself without giving back to yourself. And so, as kind of weird as this time has been it's also been really nice to, you know, to be able to kind of refill a little bit and feel a bit more like a person again.

Bronte:
I have just loved interviewing so many women in the creative industries. Talking to Kristi today about her experience behind the camera was just so cool. And it made me think about other places where we can learn about women, female presenting and nonbinary people in creative roles. The Guilty Feminist is a podcast that I've listened to for a few years now. It's hosted by the wonderful Deborah Frances-White, who is an Australian comedian. She grew up in Australia, moved to London, she used to be a Jehovah's Witness and has since become a comedian and a huge name on the podcast world. She interviews mostly women, female presenting and non binary people. And it's a really refreshing and empowering podcast to listen to. Discovering that there are so many women in and around the world doing really wonderful things for human beings, for the planet... It's such a great podcast and so heartwarming. And sometimes it looks at topics that are really, really hard. And when that happens, it's just nice to know that there's a community of people in the world that are there with you. And there's so much talk about experiences specific to women and nonbinary folk. it makes you really feel like you're not alone. If I were you, I would start at episode 1. But if you need to get into it, just start from some of the most recent episodes, I promise you'll love it. It's such a good podcast. It's comedy, it's femmes, it's learning, it's educational, it's fun, it's light, it's dark. There's so much in them. And it's always such an interesting ride. So check it out. Or if not, stay creative. Chats with Creative's is produced by Anahata Collective, music is by the wonderfully talented Rick Scully. Please rate, review, subscribe. Let me know how you like it. Let me know your thoughts. Holler if you want to chat. I'll catch you next week.

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RESOURCES 

• The Warehouse Workshop, now a screen acting studio on the Gold Coast

• AFTRS Film School

• Ladies in Black, Screen Australia article going behind the scenes

• Bonny Elliot, an award-winning cinematographer who works across drama, documentary and video art.

• GET ON IT: The Guilty Feminist Podcast

Head over to the @chats.w.creatives instagram page to stay up to date with episodes and guests we have coming up!

Follow our host Bronte Charlotte on Instagram @bronteandsunshine

Follow this week's guest Kristi Gilligan on instagram @_k.r.i.s.t.i_._

Produced by Anahata Collective @anahata_collective

Music by Rick Scully