1.4 Transitions

Jul 24

With Henry Kelly

Henry Kelly and Bronte Charlotte chat about being actors in non-conforming bodies, Henry's transition and his experiences being transgender in the creative industries, the casting of trans characters in film, TV and theatre, and the differences between being a 'maker' versus an 'actor'. These conversations around trans casting are really important, and one’s that are still being had within the creative industries. Ultimately, casting cis people in trans roles is taking an opportunity from the actors in the trans community to be seen and heard on our stages and our screens. No matter how talented an actor, or moving a performance, until the representation of trans people on our screens is up there with the white cis heteronormative representation we see all the time, any trans role given to a non-trans actor is a stolen opportunity.

During this episode we discuss:

[03:09] Dungeons & Daddies, the podcast Henry is listening to
[04:12] The VCA, travelling solo, spending time together in London
[08:55] Henry’s history in the creative industries, Showfit and auditioning for the VCA
[13:17] Theatre making vs. acting, when is it more appropriate to be one or the other?
[15:53] Coming out as transgender while at drama school, misgendering, casting, and the documentary on trans representation in the media, Disclosure
[22:53] Cisgender vs. transgender casting in film, TV and theatre
[29:56] Body politics, casting a plus size actor, anxieties around costume and wardrobe fittings, and society's expectations of beauty
[36:32] Daily practice, meditation and tarot
[39:01] The joy of play
[40:48] GET ON IT: Disclosure, a documentary on Netflix about trans representation in the media

RESOURCES

Dungeons & Daddies Podcast

Showfit

Strangers in Between at Trafalgar Studios in 2018

Network at National Theatre in 2018

Sandra Caldwell comes out to play her first transgender role Off Broadway

Disclosure Documentary ~ Netflix

Transitions TRANSCRIPT

Bronte (00:01): This is Chats with Creatives, a podcast where we talk about living as creative humans in a capitalist society, the experiences we have and insecurities we hold, a place where we have open and inclusive conversations to learn, understand, educate, and connect.

My name is Bronte, and this is Transitions with Henry Kelly. Henry is so dear to me. Today, we talk about how our friendship blossomed when we just happened to spend a week together in London; we talk about Henry's experience as a transgender man, moving through the VCA theatre degree; the difference between theatre making and acting; and we also talk about being an actor in a larger body and how that can affect your mental health, because we're in an industry that is so image-based. I loved chatting to Henry. I always do. And I love that our passion for theatre and acting and the arts is what brought us together. I really hope you enjoy this episode. All of your feedback has just been so beautiful. It means so much to me that you're listening and that it's resonating with so many of you.

Just before we begin, I would like to acknowledge that I am recording this podcast on the stolen lands of Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation. If there are any first nations peoples listening today, thank you for being here. Welcome Henry!

Henry (01:30): Hello! Thank you for having me!

Bronte (01:32): Of course! What have you been up to this morning?

Henry (01:35): This morning I woke up, I made my oats...

Bronte (01:40): I had oats too.

Henry (01:41): I love it. It's like my favourite.

Bronte (01:43): What do you have on it?

Henry (01:45): So, I call it pink porridge. It's just oats... you cook it on the stove with some water and some raspberries. And if you cook the raspberries in, the raspberries like, cook down and get like sweet all around in it, and then it goes like bright pink. And then chuck some peanut butter, some seeds and nuts on there, banana if you're feeling funky. And that was my breakfast. I got a coffee machine recently for my birthday because my mum didn't think just getting a can opener was an acceptable gift.

Bronte (02:17): Is that what you asked for?

Henry (02:19): I've never like a good can opener.

Bronte (02:20): What cans are you using?

Henry (02:24): I don't know. Like, sometimes like, okay.

Bronte (02:27): All the cans have those little flip things.

Henry (02:29): I know! Like sometimes you have a can, like a beetroot can, or like...

Bronte (02:34): WHAT?! Buy a fucking beetroot!

Henry (02:40): Hey man, don't come for me. I just wanted a nice can opener.

Bronte (02:41): Okay, great. So that's what you asked for. And instead you got a coffee machine. Man, I wish that's how my birthdays worked.

Henry (02:44): I also got the $20 can opener. So, this is adult life. So, I made my coffee and had my pink porridge and sat in my garage.

Bronte (02:56): Was it cold?

Henry (02:57): My house is like two degrees at all times. So you go outside and it's actually warm. So I went and sat out in the sun and had coffee and oats and listened to a podcast. Yeah.

Bronte (03:09): What podcasts are you listening to?

Henry (03:11): It's really nerdy. It's called Dungeons and Daddies. I'm obsessed with it. It's my favourite. So, it's a real play D&D podcast about four dads who have been transported to the Forgotten Realms (which is like the D&D world) and their sons go missing in the Forgotten Realm. It's really nerdy.

Bronte (03:33): I'm loving it.

Henry (03:33): So yeah, the sons go missing and they have to... They go on this quest to like rescue their sons. And it's just very stupid.

Bronte (03:40): So they're actually playing D&D?

Henry (03:41): Yeah. So they're actually playing, they've created their characters. It's all highly improvised. But the people who are playing it are all writers and video gah, video game writers... I might just redo that. So the people playing are writers and actors and video ga-videogahhh... Take three! They're all video game writers. Y ou're gonna have to leave that all in now... Five minutes of Henry saying 'video game writers'.

Bronte (04:12): How did we meet?

Henry (04:18): So, I was the year below Bronte at the Vachaa. It's formal name. And we had....

Bronte (04:27): What's it actually called?

Henry (04:28): The VCA. The Victorian College of the Arts. No, you need to know what the Vachaa is. We had mutual friends, but we weren't really close until I was in London and Bronte was backpacking through Europe and we kind of like figured out, oh we're in London at the same time. So we started hanging out, which was really nice. Cause like Bronte had just been...

Bronte (04:52): Alone.

Henry (04:55): Alone forever...

Bronte (04:55): For so long.

Henry (04:56): Yeah. And I was there for three weeks, traveling solo. Like, I'd met up with a couple of friends and yeah. We just started hanging out and seeing theatre and going to bars and getting vegan pizza and chilling. Yeah!

Bronte (05:09): Yeah, that week... That was my last week in Europe. It ended up being one of my favourite times, essentially purely because we randomly discovered that we were both there. I think I saw a post on Instagram or something and I...

Henry (05:24): Yeah! I had gone to Harry Potter World, like the day after you'd been or something. Yeah...

Bronte (05:27): Yes! So I'd spent a couple of days there on my own. Yeah, we'd both been to Harry Potter World, on our own, and both seen that we'd gone. And I just remember being like, holy shit, there's someone here that I know, I have a few days left. I don't want to be alone anymore. And so I just sent you a message and we were like, let's go see this show. And we saw, we saw a show by an Australian writer...

Henry (05:48): Strangers in Between.

Bronte (05:50): Strangers in Between, which was pretty fucking good. Like it was down in this basement theatre, it was like half empty and there were just three actors, and they all had amazing Australian accents. And then we just kept going to stuff. I mean, sometimes we'd go to things separately, like you got to see... What was on at National Theatre that you got to see?

Henry (06:08): Network.

Bronte (06:10): I fucking walked from where I was staying.... I walked for like an hour each day along to National Theatre just to like, see if I could get last minute tickets. And I just couldn't get in.

Henry (06:20): I started buying theatre tickets like a year in advance for this trip. I hadn't even like booked flights or accommodation or anything. I was just like, Oh I guess I'm going to be here for this three week period. Like, let's book Harry Potter and Hamilton and Network and Julius Caesar and all these plays! It was basically a big old theatre trip for me.

Bronte (06:40): Yeah. That's essentially what the London week was for me. It was like one or two shows a day. And then just walking the streets of London. It was one of my favourite places for sure. And just having you there made it so much easier. It was just a really nice end to what had been like a really difficult, lonely few months. That was good. Actually my whole time in... Most of my time in the UK was a little bit more bearable because I wasn't as cold and I wasn't going to Holocaust museums and doing all of these history tours around, you know, European cities. I was... I kind of like spent a week with a guy called Liam in his home in Droitwich Spa, which is just like a tiny little town, like an hour outside of Birmingham. And we just like hung out in his little town and it was perfect. We went to the RSC, drove for a bit to Stratford upon Avon. And then I went to Edinburgh. I hung out with my mum and Glasgow, and then I came down to London and was like... It was a good way to end that trip. That particular trip.

Henry (07:39): Yeah. I was like, in a similar spot because like, I'd packed in... My best friend, met me in London when I first got there. We hung out for a few days, and then when I was like, Oh now I am alone. Yeah, so it was really, it was really lovely. Like, I exclusively travel alone because I'm anxious and think nobody likes me.

Bronte (07:58): I understand that.

Henry (08:00): So yeah, it was really nice to like, find people and hang out. Cause like, I think in the last few years I've realised, Oh I am lonely. Yeah, which doesn't always bother me. But at times when you're so far from home and it's cold and you're in a hostel that isn't that nice... you're kind of like, I just want a friend.

Bronte (08:18): I think with us both being in that similar kind of place, I felt like it helped us bond very quickly and quite strongly like, cause I know prior to us being in London together... I say we were there together...

Henry (08:31): "Our trip to London"

Bronte (08:33): "Our trip to London..." Prior to our trip to London, yeah, we didn't really talk much at VCA. It's like, we just didn't really have much to do with each other, which is, you know, there's a lot of people there. I feel like when we came back, our relationship had just kind of flipped and changed and, yeah.

Henry (08:46): Absolutely.

Bronte (08:46): And I'm so glad about it like, so happy that we had that time and that experience!

Henry (08:51): Same! I'm like, this wonderful person that was just in front of me for a whole year and then yeah...

Bronte (08:55): Give us a little run down of who you are and your history in the creative industries.

Henry (09:05): So, I've always been very artistic. So, I'm from country Tasmania, a little town called New Norfolk. I think, I went to a birthday party and a girl got a pair of tap shoes and I was like, 'mum, I want to do dancing'. And she was like, okay, you can go to this studio, whatever. And was hoping I'd grow out of it. But then that just kind of made all the creative shit flourish. Yeah, I grew up doing a lot of creative extracurricular things. And through high school I did a lot of visual art and kind of really wanted to be a comic book artist. And that was like my goal. And then, I got into a intensive, at the art school in Hobart, where I got to go and do university classes. Yeah, so I applied for that and got in and did it, and I had to go to lectures about art history and I was 16 and like 'boring! I just want to fucking draw.' Did that. Realised I don't like that enough to dedicate my whole life to it.

So then I was like, Oh I've always liked this acting and dancing thing, so I went to college. I got into the more performing arts there. And then I auditioned for Showfit, which is a music theatre course in East Brunswick in Melbourne. And I did that for two years and I always went into Showfit thinking these are added skills for me as an actor and as a maker. And one thing that was always drilled into us at Showfit was, you need to be able to make your own work. Which, I'm so glad, because it really made me expand my scope as what it is to be an artist, even if you are in music theatre. A lot of people think music theatre, you're just, you stand on that number and you say this line like that, cause that's what the person in New York did. With the big shows that's kind of the mentality around it. Which lots of people don't like because we're artists and independent humans and have brains and want to, you know, make our own choices and find our own reasons for things as actors and performers.

After the two years there, the whole time I was like auditioning for VCA and other drama schools... Getting rejected. So, I had a year between VCA and Showfit where I went and worked full time and went traveling and just kind of like was sad and grew a lot as a person. So, I auditioned for VCA... On my third go I got in. I graduated the theatre degree last year, which was a new course and there was nine of us and it was very fun and crazy, and I learnt so much about me and my artistry and what I want. And just that being a maker and an artist is so much more than like, saying lines or you know, like to be an artist is so much more than a connection between your scene partner. Like, there's so much available and that can be encompassed, which is one of the best things I learned at VCA was like, you can do whatever! Just because you are interested in this thing today, doesn't mean you need to stick to that if it doesn't interest you tomorrow. There's so many different forms to help support your work and explore them.

Bronte (12:15): I auditioned for VCA many times as well. I did the drama school auditions for four years with a break in between. So, it was on my fifth year out of high school that I eventually got into the VCA, with a few years of being shortlisted for different schools around the country. But, I honestly, I can't see me fitting into a different group or a different year of students than the one that I was with. Like, I feel the same way about you. Like, I see you with the group of people that you graduated the theatre degree with, and I can't see you with a different group of people.

Henry (12:50): Yeah, me too!

Bronte (12:50): You guys were just so close and you just made such amazing work together that I think if one of you was missing, the dynamic would be so different. And I think all nine of you put in such wonderful and interesting ideas and parts of yourself that just always created such beautiful art. And it was so much more than just a connection in a scene or lines on stage.

Here's a question... do you see yourself more as an actor or a theatre maker? Do you think there is a difference between them or there should be a difference between them? They should be thought of as different things?

Henry (13:27): I think it depends on the job you're doing. Like, if I am hired to be in an MTC play that is an adoption of A Doll's House, I'm hired to be an actor. And I think even on the scale of MTC with those main stage productions, there are so many other people in control of decisions where you have to kind of relinquish your autonomy as a maker a little bit. Obviously, I want a director/actor relationship to be like, let's discuss this or I have ideas... like, let's have a dialogue. I really like working that way when I am acting and directing. So, I think you just have to like take what the job is and assess it that way. But if I'm doing a... Like a new work at Theatre Works where I'm an actor, but it is a more hands on creative process, I can bleed the lines between maker and actor a little bit more. Of course you need to be respectful of the actual creative team and not be like, 'Oh I don't, - I don't think my character would do that!' Yeah, I think there is a time and a place when your actor hat is on and when your maker hat is on, and it can merge sometimes. Yeah, I think I will always look at things through a makers lens.

Bronte (14:43): Have you ever questioned this path?

Henry (14:47): Yeah. Not like, Oh I'm going to go and be a doctor. More of like a, Oh am I ever going to be successful with this? And my idea of success is like, I can pay my rent! Yeah, and I think especially recently during ISO, and being a new graduate during this time is so scary... In the space of a week I had my entire life flip. I had just ended a creative relationship with a group of people that I've been working with the years. Work closed down, and then I moved back home.

Bronte (15:21): Why did you go back to Tassie?

Henry (15:23): My mum is a nurse, and my younger brother has autism and his school was closing down. So, my mum couldn't work and look after him. I went home and helped my mum out. I don't know, I just, it felt like what I had to do. Yeah, so, I went back home for like three and a half months, I've only just come back to Melbourne. Yeah it was weird being home because I hadn't ever spent that much time at home since I left when I was 18.

Bronte (15:53): When you came out as trans, did that effect your life at the VCA at all?

Henry (15:59): Yes and no, because I think my anxiety around it all was the worst part because I've realized - if people care about you, they don't give a fuck. And like, that's a really hard thing to come to terms with, for people who have anything that's not our heteronormative things that society has drilled into us. So that was nerve wracking, even though I know everyone in my life is cool with it. I'm very lucky in that regard, that I am in this creative, leftist art space and the people I surround myself with are good humans. I guess the hardest part was, I had already established two years of rapport with the teachers around me and the students. And then, that transition was hard because people would fall back into old habits. And, I knew that they didn't mean harm, but like it gets to you after the 10th time, after the 30th time. And it's not just one person that's making a mistake, it's six people making a mistake. It just kind of builds on top of each other.

I think there was only like two instances that I actually like, had a public breakdown about that kind of stuff, and it was just because it was like, heat of the moment.... I was frustrated, the people involved were just, we were working on the floor, and when you work on the floor your in kind of like this flight mode and like, your mouth can run faster than your brain sometimes in those moments. And pronouns and my birth name would come up and it would just like get to me... Kind of like the breaking point. And in those situations, the person mis-gendering or misusing your name is like, I can guarantee you that they're feeling a hundred times worse than you were feeling because it is an accident. It is just like your brain working too hard because I know that these people aren't malicious and I've spoken to them about those incidents afterwards. Stuff like that's really hard.

Oh, there's weird things, like especially VCA is a very active environment and stuff like binding you can't do when you're running around in a studio for eight hours every day, because it's dangerous. So then there's that kind of like insecurity within your own body when you have to not wear a binder in class. Or, you know, have people touching you. It just is like a series of things that kind of like grate on your mind that you know are harmless and are just like, you have to deal with it, but like, they pile up.

Bronte (18:19): Do you think it would have been different had you chosen the acting stream? In terms of like, then things like casting would have come into it? Whereas, I feel like in the theatre stream you have mildly more control over the characters that you play or even so many of the characters that you guys would play in the theatre shows like weren't gendered. Maybe not on purpose, but I never really, there wasn't many that I was like, Oh you specifically a female character or a male character unless... Swim Between the Flags there was like a mother and a father figure. But like, other characters weren't necessarily gendered all the time. Whereas, I know that being in the acting stream in our second year, we had our Shakespeare's split by genders. So, we had a male cast and a female cast, but there was a gender nonconforming actor who was put into the female group. And I just wonder, do you feel like things would have been different or do you kind of just think it would, it wouldn't have been a thing?

Henry (19:10): I think because I only came out at the start of my third year, so I had two years of being viewed as a woman. And there was times where that was really challenging because I was like, still figuring things out for myself. And I'm like, trying to play these like strong female characters and crumbling because I just can't connect to that. Even though there's so many things that a strong female character, which is like a really blanket archetype, that I can relate to as a person, but I just couldn't access it as being a woman. If I had done the acting stream and started finding showcase scenes and like that kind of content, I think, especially because I hadn't had surgery, I was very early on in my hormone replacement therapy, coming into that kind of showcase season etc, that I would probably have had to be like, more or less type-casted as the 'trans character,' so people don't view me as a butch woman. Essentially a masculine woman, which is one of the things that I don't like being seen as, just as me as a queer trans man, being viewed in the kind of expression of masculinity and femininity. Yeah, it makes me very uncomfortable. And I think I would have to really search for those roles of trans men, non-binary people, for my showcase scenes.

Bronte (20:33): And there's not many.

Henry (20:33): There's not!

Bronte (20:36): And a lot of the time, that representation in the media or in, you know, film and TV, it's not an honest representation of trans people. Half the time it's not written by or created by or acted by a transgender person. So generally there's something missing. I just don't feel like the representation on screen is true to the experiences that trans people have. Or that a trans person cannot act as the gender that they are, because they have to play a trans character. And I feel like we're moving in a good direction, but I don't feel like there's enough honest representation.

Henry (21:15): I recently watched Disclosure on Netflix, which is like...

Bronte (21:18): So intense. So good!

Henry (21:20): Oh, so good though. This is our history and this is the history of our representation on screen in the media, by people that mostly are not gender nonconforming. And I agree, it is it's starting to get better. Like, so many things we're finally pulling our socks up, but we have a long way to go. Especially in a showcase setting it's like, you have your four minutes for the agents to potentially tick you off... Say, 'I would employ that person'. It's this weird balance of like, playing the game, being like, 'yes, I am a trans person. I am here. Please hire me. I'm actually good'.

I don't know. It's like this delicate balance of, play the game, you know, get hired and let people know who you are. And that you're proud of that. But also like, how many fucking scenes with trans characters, especially like juicy important scenes, are them coming out or getting fucking queer bashed? I don't know. Like, sometimes I like to watch other people showreels, and I was watching one person's showreel who is a very talented non-binary actor. And it's just like, ah, it's such a waste because the scene is about them being nonbinary and that's it. But it's like that person needed to choose that scene so they can be authentically seen by these casting representatives, which sucks. Especially coming out of drama school. It's like, yeah I act, I trained for three years and here is my two minute scene telling you my gender. Instead of showing you that I can actually act.

Bronte (22:53): How do you view cisgender people playing transgender characters? An example is Jeffrey Tambor playing the lead in Transparent. He's a white cis male actor playing a character who is transitioning into a woman. And I love the series. Enjoy it. There are issues with Jeffrey Tambor as like a human, let alone him playing the role of a transgender woman. I've always thought that that should have been played by a trans woman. Even with the film The Danish Girl, Eddie Redmayne playing a trans woman. Again, it's like, it's a transition story. So yes, they start in, I suppose, the gender that they were assigned, but that role and the role that Jeffrey Tambor played, they could have been given to trans women. I feel like those, in particular those roles and even Hilary Swank in Boys Don't Cry... Those are roles that are transgender roles. Why are they not give into transgender actors?

Henry (23:54): I think the Danish Girl and Boys Don't Cry are films that I really enjoy, because they are good films. But in retrospect, I think that they should be given to trans actors. For when they were made, the fact that they were stories about trans people is great. It's like good intentions, poor execution. Especially with Boys Don't Cry, like it's fucked.

Bronte (24:19): Both of them won Oscars for their performances. I think that they're both incredible performances. It's executed poorly. It's not cast appropriately. And it's not inclusive. And it's not, again, it's almost like not a true representation because... but then also, this conversation, there are so many things involved in it. Ultimately trans character, a transactor should just be cast in that role. Ultimately, because so often they're left out. So often trans characters aren't written, trans people aren't cast. And that lack of representation is why we should be casting transgender people in transgender roles. It's not to say that a gay woman cannot play a straight woman, or a straight man cannot play a gay man. Like those things... Being an actor is about changing who you are playing a different human playing a different experience. But as cisgender people, like as assistant a woman, I am... I have inherently a way more privileged life, essentially because I... There are roles written for me. And, although it's a fight in getting better roles for women just in general, but it's nothing compared to getting more trans characters into our stories or more trans actors onto our stages. You can argue anything I'm saying, please.

Henry (25:34): No! I agree with you. I think, for the time that those films were made, it was good to at least see some acknowledgement. But you know, those are roles for trans actors. And I used to not have as big a problem with the Danish Girl as I do now. One of my friends, like fought me to the death about... It's a stolen story. And I was like, you are correct. It is a story that feels inauthentic because it was taken from that community. You can probably apply that to any white person playing a person of colour. I think sexuality is a bit... There was a long time where cis white het actors playing queer roles, getting Oscars... Because they're being queer.

But I think, I don't deem sexuality as something that is exclusive to queer people because as a queer actor, I don't want to only play a gay character. You know? Even like, with being trans, at this moment I'm very self-aware. I'm at this point in my transition where I sometimes pass as cis, and then a lot of the time don't. So, probably for the next three years, until I'm at a place within my transition, I will be cast as trans characters. There will have to be like an explanation.

Like, if I was cast tomorrow in Death of a Salesman as the dude that goes 'Willy!' What's his name? Biff or some shit. I don't know. If I was, for some reason they're casting a 25 year old as Biff, there would have to be an explanation behind that. I was like, me in my heteronormative lens, sees that person on the female end of the spectrum... Why are they playing this male? And there would have to be like some kind of explanation for like average Joe watching in the audience. And they could say, Oh that's great, like I don't actually care, that's cool. And like, that's going to be, I think, most people's reactions. And then, sometimes people kick up a stink. I think not acknowledging those things, it's just shitty.

I've had friends that have worked with directors as actors of colour, and they've been cast in a play where they're brown and their parents are both white. And they say to the director, can we have a conversation about this? But the director goes, I don't see colour, I don't see you like that, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's just undermining a whole person's experience. It's not the same. And I'll never know what it is to be an actor of colour, but as a trans actor at this point where I don't pass and that's the truth, I don't pass all the time. Hopefully one day I'll have a full beard, like my brother. And now, for now, for this audio podcast, for those playing at home, I have this awful like 14 year old scrappy puberty beard, and I love it.

For the moment I have to acknowledge that I'm going to be playing the roles of the trans person for like just a little bit and it's not going to be forever. And then I can play big old Spiderman Buff Boy. There was one thing in the Danish Girl that I really liked, which was... I read this article like years and years ago and I don't even know if it's true. At the time when that film came out, one of the nurses in her recovery room was played by a trans woman, but was playing a cis character. And I think that was like, one of the first times that a trans woman had played just a cis woman. That was one of the biggest things that I took away from that film. There was a woman in Disclosure that came out years and years later.

Bronte (28:55): After she'd been playing cis characters, like her whole career.

Henry (28:59): Yeah. Which is incredible.

Bronte (29:01): Yeah. She also said that she lived in fear. Like she would do sex scenes or just general scenes, and she'd be like, 'I am terrified that I'm going to get yelled at, or that I'm going to get kicked off this movie, I'm going to get outed...' Until she finally felt like she could.

Henry (29:16): Like that is something I only learnt recently. I think The Danish Girl was like 2015. At that time, seeing that trans person playing a cis character was huge. I wasn't out then, but I felt a huge connection to that.

Bronte (29:33): The actress that Henry and I have just been discussing, her name is Sandra Caldwell. She completed her transition when she was 19 old and is now in her mid-sixties and has just recently come out. Her story is amazing. She's been acting since the 80's. I will post about her on the Chats with Creative socials and you can have a read.

Is there something in the industry that you just really struggle with? I know it's not like a very positive question, but it's like, I feel like sharing things that we struggle with as creatives, maybe we'll create a little bit more awareness around the things that different people struggle with.

Henry (30:12): I struggle going into a casting room as a plus sized actor.

Bronte (30:17): Okay. Right.

Henry (30:17): Yeah. It's just so many fucking layers, being gay, being trans, being chubby. It's just really shit. I don't know, there's just like so many preconceived ideas of beauty, and there's just like...

Bronte (30:32): That are so fucked.

Henry (30:33): It's so fucked! And It's just like, there's a part of me that feels like if they're going to give this opportunity to a gender nonconforming actor, they're going to choose a really hot one. That is, that fits this really like conventional beauty box that society creates because... We like pretty people, you know, and we want to win the audience with the pretty person. Ever since coming out I've found this new belief in myself and love for my body. Even though it's like, Oh I haven't had top surgery yet, and I want that so bad. And I'm like... But I love my little belly now.

I like, sure, I want to change things so I can pass and be more myself. But I'm not like in this constant struggle of hating myself that I did before I came out. That's like one of the most frustrating things. It's like, I am really right for this role, and you can't see past my size. Which is shit. Yeah.

Bronte (31:29): I can relate in that, sometimes I go into a space and I'm like, this role is me. You don't know that because you can't see past me having like, a body that you don't think fits on stage. You want someone really petite and pretty and quiet. I've found a lot of issues with me being like, a larger presence in terms of my body, but also my thoughts and my opinions being a little bit louder than a lot of people that... It's just infuriating. I mean, do I have to change what I am, or what I think, or how loud I am, or how... whatever it may be... Do I have to change that just to get a job. And I don't want to, so a lot of the time I don't get the job. And it's not always why, it's not always on my mind, and it's not always that, but it's, it's kind of there.

It's something that I definitely struggle with. I struggle with that... Society's idea of beauty and beauty standards and which actors get the work. And then I watch the work and I'm like, Oh yeah... silly, you know really silly, awful thoughts come up like, Oh yeah, that person is really easy to get into a costume. They're a generic size. Whereas with me, you'd have to measure everything and shape everything to a different body shape.

Henry (32:39): Which is, it's really fucking frustrating because it's like, the costume department, that is your fucking job. Not to rag on all my costume designers out there. I've worked with so many incredible costume people, but then I've also worked with people that are like lazy because they are...

Bronte (32:55): And, not good at communicating. I've had some really awful costume fittings where I've had a panic attack right there in front of the costume designer and been like, this doesn't fit me or whatever it may be. Or I don't want to show that much skin, or I do want to show more skin but you think it should be hidden like, and it's... But also, some wonderful costume designers. Some costume designers that have made me feel like my body's not acceptable on stage or in the particular costume or whatever. It's a huge thing. Especially being an actor, you're literally standing on stage being there in your body... To feel like your body is not adequate or not appropriate, or you've been told that it's not appropriate for a particular role... You're like, okay thanks for the feedback on my craft.

Henry (33:46): So when I was doing Showfit, which is the music theatre course, we did this thing every week, called Mock Auditions. So we'd get assigned a musical for the week that we had to come in and fake audition for. And I remember, it was like a Aladdin or like Jungle Book... it was some fucking Disney thing, and I wore a crop top and high waisted pants. And there was about an inch of my tummy showing. And this was back when I had my dancer body. So I wasn't like, even like that big, like I was a size 12/14, fluctuating between that. And all my feedback for that audition was about that inch of skin showing. Yeah, and I was like, okay... so I just, like... I'd never want a crop top in my whole life. And I felt like confident enough to like, do it in an audition room and then yeah...I was crushed.

Bronte (34:33): It's horrible. It's so ingrained in the business as well, in the creative industries in performing and...

Henry (34:40): I've had friends that have gone through full time dance institutions where they've had classes, like weekly classes, in their underwear. Showgirl class or something. But there's also like, it's not just on the women that are having these like insane beauty standards pushed upon them. Like, the men are like, you need to be super buff and there's like a certain amount of, yeah you need a fit body to be able to perform. But there's so much more emphasis on aesthetics than it is on fitness and strength, which really fucking sucks.

And one of the best things about theatre making is you have autonomy on that kind of stuff. If I was just an actor and I was just jobbing, it would be really toxic on my mental health because of that kind of mentality of like, Oh I didn't get that because I'm not thin enough, or I'm not conventionally beautiful. Whereas in making your own work you can just be... You can just be. It's not about what you look like as much. It is what you're saying and what you're presenting in the work.

Bronte (35:47): Do you have something in your day that you just have to do? And if you don't do it, you don't feel right.

Henry (35:51): Oh, it's really bad.

Bronte (35:54): Is it your pink porridge?

Henry (35:55): I have to have a coffee with a cigarette.

Bronte (35:59): Is it generally a breakfast thing though?

Henry (36:03): Yeah.

Bronte (36:03): No judgment at all. I just... A morning cigarette.

Henry (36:07): Just like sitting out, watching the sun like, that early kind of mid-morning sun, and it's still a bit chilly, and you've got a coffee and a dart... What more could you want? And it's just like, no one should smoke. But it's just, I just love that act. And so far I haven't found anything to replace that. Yeah. For like a daily kind of ritual.

Bronte (36:32): That leads me on to my next question... Do you have a daily practice? And it doesn't have to be... It could be anything, could be mental, spiritual...

Henry (36:42): So when I... I haven't been doing it the last week because I've, like I was saying, I've just come back to Melbourne. Still kind of gettin' my life together. I do like to do a bit of yoga in the morning. I also read tarot. So I will... I'm a bit spooky witchy.... So I'll often, I'll do some yoga, I'll meditate and do a tarot reading if I'm feeling mentally fit to, because it's, you know, for it actually to work you need to be focused. And some days you're not feeling that. So I like to do that and I like to then have my coffee and dart and my pink porridge. And then read, and then, then go check my phone and social media.

Bronte (37:25): So you have quite a... Quite a full morning routine. Yeah.

Henry (37:28): Yeah. I do that on my ideal day. But you know life is life. Sometimes you stayed out drinking till 3:00 AM and you have work at 10.

Bronte (37:41): Fuck you, tarot. Not this morning.

Henry (37:41): Not today Satan! Yeah. So, I don't know, I like doing tarot and meditating and spending that time with my body and my thoughts and kind of aligning myself. And I use tarot as my divination of choice because it really like allows me to reflect. And it is just, I've had this deck for a couple years and I sleep with it next to my bed and it's just very attuned to me.

Bronte (38:09): So, I have a tarot deck, but if we were to read it, do you feel like you would be able to read from my tarot deck or do you feel like if you were doing someone's tarot, or your own tarot, do you have to have your own deck?

Henry (38:21): I prefer to use my deck. Even if I'm doing a reading for another person, I will do my weird protection stuff to like, kind of, protect me and the other person when I'm reading them and make sure their energy leaves the cards when I'm done. I feel like if I had to read you with your deck, I could probably do it. It would take a lot more concentration on my part, but I feel like I would be able to read you with that because it is yours. If that makes sense.

Bronte (38:49): Oh my God so fucking cool.

Henry (38:51): I am really cool.... I just licked the microphone... I was going to say, I'm not like other boys, I read tarot.

Bronte (39:01): I love it. What brings you joy creatively?

Henry (39:08): Oh, creatively I really love play. Like that state of play that you find within other creatives. And that can be translated as rolling off ideas with each other or, you know, actually being in a studio and running around and being silly. Like there's so many ways to explore play. And I think definitely in the past a lot of really amazing things have come from play with no pressure. Like, while I was at VCA, I'd often stay until like at least eight o'clock just fucking around in a studio with mates because we just get in... we just start doing bits and then it rolls into this play where we can just kind of unwind almost. And it's really fun, I dunno.

I think finding things that are fun and enjoying things that can be considered lame. Or like even the things that I like to engage with that other people have made creatively, like the Dungeons and Dragons podcast I was talking about. It is just so fun and just silly and just carefree and makes me excited because I am around creative people. Even if it is a podcast or a television show or something. I don't know, it's just this creative space and this flow of play is really beautiful. It's where the magic happens. Yeah. Play is beautiful.

Bronte (40:38): Yeah. Thanks Henry.

Henry (40:40): Thank you for having me here.

Bronte (40:42): Thanks for being here. It's been a treat.

Henry and I mentioned a documentary called Disclosure in our chat today. Disclosure is a documentary on Netflix, looking at the history of trans representation in the media. It's a really important documentary to watch. There are interviews with trans actors, trans creatives and their experiences seeing trans people on the screen throughout their entire childhood and how that affected them and how it changed the way they thought about themselves or what they could do within the industry. It's a beautiful, beautiful documentary, and it's really, really eye opening and so important to see just how the media has represented transgender people since the beginning of film and TV. It's on Netflix at the moment. It's super informative and interesting and important. If you enjoyed what Henry and I were talking about today, or if you'd like to learn more, check out Disclosure. Otherwise, stay creative.

Chats with Creatives is produced by Anahata Collective. Music is by the wonderfully talented Rick Scully. Please rate, review subscribe. Let me know how you like it. Let me know your thoughts. Holler if you want to chat, I'll catch you next week.

Bronte (42:15): When you were in London... When I was in London… Did you see music theatre then?

Henry (42:19): I did. I saw Hamilton. I did, but okay. I was the only person in the theatre that didn't give a standing ovation.

Bronte (42:29): I haven't even listened to the soundtrack.

Henry (42:32): It's very good. Like it's a good show.

Bronte (42:34): I want to. I recently listened to a podcast with, um, Lin Manuel Miranda. I nearly said Min Lanuel. Hmm that's him. Right? Lin Manuel Mirrr mirr merrh!

Henry (42:49): Miranda.

Bronte (42:51): Lin Manuel Miranda.

Henry (42:51): Say that 10 times fast.

Bronte (42:52): Lin Manuel Miranda Lin Manuel Miranda Lin Manuel Miranda.

Henry (42:54): I can't even say it one time.

Bronte (42:56): I couldn't, and then you gave me a challenge! My God!