1.8 Finding the Craft
With Leigh Scully
Leigh Scully and Bronte Charlotte chat about the impact past traumas have on our ability to trust and believe in our ability to apply ourselves to our work, different tools to strengthen mental fortitude, and King of the Crossing (the 13 episode, fully improvised web series we released over the course of Melbourne’s COVID-19 lockdown period). We goof around with impressions, voices and accents, chat about the hierarchy of the creative industries, and how we can create space for those in less privileged positions than us who are often silenced and left unrepresented throughout the industry.
During this episode we discuss:
[03:00] Strawberry ice cream, flavour developers and living with family
[12:30] How we met, Bucks or Bag of Dicks, and childhood friendships with beautiful humans
[18:52] Leigh’s journey from acting without commiting to acting as a career, non-linear pathways into finding your passion for the craft, and actors & psychology
[31:17] Confronting trauma, facing shame, and building inner strength
[35:60] Transitioning from film to theatre, and the difference between Sydney and Melbourne’s creative communities
[38:20] King of the Crossing the Webseries, Yon Yonson the band, and family creativity & collaboration
[44:02] Putting on voices & accents, how Big Mouth took over our life, and how being silly is keeping us sane through Melbourne’s COVID-19 Stage 4 lockdown
[55:48] The joy of a truly connected performance, moving your body, and how adopting kittens will inherently improve your mental health
[1:01:46] When The Light Leaves, having autonomy over your own body, and life affirming realisations
[1:06:34] How we as cis white middle class people can create space for those less privileged than us, dealing with the limited power you have in the hierarchy of the creative industries, and facing rejection
[1:15:15] GET ON IT: David Tennant Does a Podcast with...
Where’s My Money (dir. Beng Oh)
When The Light Leaves (dir. Jayde Kirchert)
RESOURCES
ATYP Australian Theatre for Young People
Bucks, Or Bag of Dicks: Bad Ducks Theatre Company
King of the Crossing
Watch all 13 episodes HERE
F: @kingofthecrossing
I: @king_of_the_crossing
Harm: Short film
Watch HERE
When The Light Leaves: Citizen Theatre
GET ON IT: David Tennant Does a Podcast with...
Finding Your Craft TRANSCRIPT
Bronte (00:02): This is chats with creatives. A podcast where we talk about living as creative humans in a capitalist society, the experiences we have and insecurities we hold, a place where we have open and inclusive conversations to learn, understand, educate and connect.
Wow. Okay. Hello everyone! This is the end of season one of Chats with Creatives! What a time it has been. I've had a blast! I cannot tell you how amazing this has been. I have loved interviewing these beautiful humans that have been in the last eight episodes. It's been an absolute treat. It's been so fun and inspiring and just heart-warming! Heart warming to know that, you know, we're not alone. We all have struggles in this industry and in everyday life living as creative human beings. It's been such a wonderful, educational insight into people's lives. Huge shout out to all of those wonderful humans that I've had on this season. You guys are the best of the best! I fucking love you! Thank you so much for sharing your time with me. Thank you to everyone for listening. It's been such a treat. If you have a moment and you've been listening on Apple Podcasts - chuck me a review. You can review each episode individually and rate each episode individually. So, depending on how you've been vibing with the episodes, or maybe just chuck a review on your favourite one, it really helps me get the podcast out and share it with more people. Also, if you feel like doing a cheeky share, I'm not opposed to it. Let's get to today's episode!
Today, I am talking with Leigh Scully about Finding the Craft. Leigh is an actor and writer from Sydney, Australia. We met just over three years ago now and have been together for the majority of that time. We now live in Melbourne and have a really lovely, weird, fun life together. It's super empowering living with someone who is so supportive and creative and playful. In this episode, we discuss the effects of trauma in our lives, how it can affect our mental health and our ability to commit to a certain path in life. We talk about the joys of performing, the power that comes from a fully connected performance, and working on a play about voluntary assisted dying as laws in Victoria came into effect. Leigh and I have been releasing a web series together over the course of the COVID-19 lockdown here in Melbourne. So, we also delve into the collaborations and pleasant surprises we've faced while isolating together since March.
Before we begin, I want to acknowledge that I'm recording this podcast on the stolen and lands of the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation. I will be forever grateful to have grown up on this land. Let's get to it. Welcome Leigh! How are you?
Leigh (03:06): I'm going all right. How are you?
Bronte (03:07): I’m going all right.
Leigh (03:10): Well that’s good. Interview done.
Bronte (03:12): The end.
Leigh (03:19): Thanks for listening. You can catch me next time. If anyone has any requests, please feel free to dial in and make sure you fill us in on your life story in the meantime… Dream job. Richard Mercer, you better watch your back.
I'm a feeling the powerful femme energy from this cup. I'm actually kind of glad they put our coffees in the rog mugs.
Bronte (03:37): In the… sorry, in the what? The rog mugs?
Leigh (03:40): The wrong mugs. Is this going to be a running theme? Where every time I mispronounce a word you pull me up on it?
Bronte (03:47): Yes.
Leigh (30:48): Yeah. Fair enough. It has been for the last three years, why would it change?
Bronte (03:52): I can feel…
Leigh (03:55): …it coming in the air tonight...?
Bronte (03:58): I can feel the coffee! The caffeine in his fucking decaf coffee like, running through my veins and spreading out through my heart and pulsing through my eyeballs. Why do I do this to myself?
Leigh (04:11:) As if you were made of paper and it was a drop of thick ink and it was just spreading through your crevice’s...
Bronte (04:14): That's exactly how coffee affects me. And yet I couldn't say no. I was meant to buy you a coffee though… Alas…
Leigh (04:22): That's all right. The amount of times that you forget your wallet when you leave the house, it just means that I never owe you any money.
Bronte (04:32): Eurgh… Yeah it’s not good for the voice. Note to friends, coffee pre-podcast makes for a very gluggy… Like there's a lot of… a lot of mucus in the mouth.
Leigh (04:47): Have a gargle! Get some of that water, get your mason jar of water, have a little sip, do a little gargle. For those of you listening along at home, Bronte just blew bubbles into her jar of water. And a few drops spilled down her chin.
Bronte (05:09): Really? Don't you remember though, when you were a kid? Like I wouldn't go to McDonald's often, but when I did, it was a strawberry thick shake… and into the straw I would blow… I sound like a poet! And I would blow into the straw and make bubbles in the thick shake, but it would be really hard to do because it was so thick of McDonald's ice cream. Cut forward 20 years and I'm a vegan. Don't touch that shit with a 10 foot pole.
Leigh (05:37): Yeah. Even if that 10 foot pole was a really big straw.
Bronte (05:43): Please wait till I finish gulping down my coffee before you make me laugh.
Leigh (05:47): I’m not going to compromise my comedic timing for your imbibement. Hey, look though, the God's honest truth is: there is no God. And also, I’ve never had a strawberry thick shake in my life. I really detest that artificial strawberry flavour. I think it's disgusting.
Bronte (06:08): I love it. I was a strawberry flavoured kid.
Leigh (06:10): It's just red sugar. I mean, I guess chocolate flavouring is just brown sugar.
Bronte (06:16): Exactly. I would get the strawberry ice cream scoop, the strawberry milkshake, anything strawberry was my vibe. But, my dad's dessert… way back when - this must've been when I was in year, like 2 or so, year 1 or 2 - because I remember the house. I remember the veranda that we were sitting on. My dad had a big bowl of vanilla ice cream. Like, I'm not even… imagine a larger bowl than you can imagine of ice cream. Say it's just a full litre tub of ice cream in a bowl and he's just cut up a punnet of strawberries. And then instead of eating the ice cream with a spoon and a little, a mouth full of strawberry with each ice cream… He would grab a fork and mush it all up, and attack those strawberries and just mush up the strawberries. And then he'd have this gluggy, weird, strawberry, goopy ice cream. And that was how he would eat it. And I wouldn't eat that ice cream, but I would eat fake strawberry ice cream from an ice cream store.
Leigh (7m 18s): See, this is what's wrong with the world that we live in. Your dad sounds like a straight up genius, by the way. Like that is…
Bronte (07:24): I thought you were going to say demon.
Leigh (07:28): He's a demon genius. So, my parents had, I think a housemate or at least a good friend, who was a scientist. And for a while, that friend, that scientist friend -this was in the seventies, I think - they were flat sharing in the 70s together. My dad, my dad's brother, Leo - who is my uncle, funnily enough - my dad's brother Leo’s partner Anne, and my mum. I think at some point all shared a house together.
Bronte (07:49): I couldn't do that. I couldn't share with either of my siblings. My siblings did share together once though. It says a bit about me and my family dynamic versus your family's dynamic.
Leigh (07:58): Well, I think Alana and Rick and I would go pretty well sharing a house together, but I don't think we would be each other's first options. We might drive each other up the wall.
Bronte (08:09): I think with any flatmates that you have, I think at some point you drive each other up the wall, no matter if you're related or not. I don't drive you up the wall, do I? We flat share.
Leigh (08:18): Well, I live halfway up the wall. That's my safe space.
Bronte (08:20): What do you mean? As in your taller?
Leigh (08:23): No, as in I’m half mad.
Bronte (08:25): Oh, I’ve never heard that expression before.
Leigh (08:27): I made it up.
Bronte (08:29): Wow. Fucking coin that shit! Like, copyright that right now.
Leigh (08:31): Coin it boy! Okay. No. So, the scientist, I never got to the end of my story. A running theme in my life.
Bronte (08:36): Please, tell me more. It’ so relevant to the conversation today.
Leigh (08:43): Indeed. Is it?
Bronte (08:45): No!
Leigh (08:45): I don't know. Okay. Anyway, my parent’s scientist friend worked for an ice cream company.
Bronte (08:50): God, I’m so judgmental of people's stories. It’s is a running theme in my life at the moment.
Leigh (08:58): I think the secondary theme to that is you interrupting them before they’re done.
Bronte (09:02): Oh, hold up. We have a wonderful listener who tells this story about a fucking apple crumble, which I could go without. And they know that and yet they choose to tell it.
Leigh (09:11): Here we go. Back to the seventies. In my parents' flat share with their scientist friend, working for the ice cream company, as a flavour developer. He would come home with all these amazing different flavours of ice cream that he was working on and just have it for the house. And my mum tells a story…
Bronte (09:30): Sounds like a dream.
Leigh (09:32): It was a dream… except it was real. My mum tells this story of him bringing home this absolutely phenomenal strawberry flavoured ice cream made with real strawberries. And it was one of the best things she'd ever tasted up until that point. Simple country palette perhaps, but also an excellent ice cream flavour.
Bronte (09:51): So good. I would eat that now!
Leigh (09:53): And the ice cream company rejected this delicious strawberry flavoured ice cream, made with real strawberries, because – dun dun daaaah – it tasted too much like real strawberries and not enough like fake strawberry flavour. And the moral of that story is… Bronte?
Bronte (10:17): Do what you can before The Man says you can't. Do you not agree? As in make the ice cream before He says you can’t make it. Before the churner, before the paddle artist… comes the flavour designer and they test and design the flavours. And like, I could do that. Like chuck me an ice cream made of chocolate fudge plus salted caramel plus, I don't know, cherry popcorn or something… like I could come up with this shit! I could do it.
Leigh (10:55): You just did. In fact, I think you should open a store that just sells that one flavour.
Bronte (11:00): I probably wouldn’t even eat it myself. I don't eat anything cherry flavored because what nonsense! Just like an apple flavoured pie. Why would you have a cherry flavoured pie? Why do you have fruit in dessert? Actually, let's just go one step further. Why do you have fruit on pizza? Who does it?
Leigh (11:15): What you mean pineapple? Sometimes I don't mind a bit of pineapple on pizza. Very, very rarely.
Bronte (11:22): And do you know what, I think that is going to be the reason we separate. One day you'll order a pineapple pizza and I'll say, “no more, no more of this.”
Leigh (11:34): Maybe it'll be a picnic for an anniversary, and I'll take you to a beautiful botanical gardens, and I'll preset fairy lights. We'll go just as the sun is setting. And I'll have a really handsome woman in a bright pink power suit and a broad brimmed hat ride in on a small pony and deliver us our food…
Bronte (11:55): Oh I thought you were describing me for a second. I was like, why are you…? Are you going to run off with this woman who looks like me?
Leigh (12:02): No, she’s our specifically hired food deliverer and she is going to lay down the spread for us. And it will be like the single most romantic thing I've ever done. But then, the food will be pineapple on pizza, apple pie and cherry ice cream.
Bronte (12:17): And it will be the end. And I’ll run off on the horse!
Leigh (12:20): That's the moment you'll know... That's right, you’ll run away with the food deliverer person in her bright pink power suit on a small pony.
Bronte (12:28): Oh my God, don’t tempt me.
Okay Leigh Scully!
Leigh (12:34): Shall we start?
Bronte (12:36): How did we meet?
Leigh (12:38): Well, I think you were there. We met because I was down in Melbourne, rehearsing a play with a dear friend of mine, Julian Dibley-Hall. And that play was going to go to Adelaide Fringe Festival.
Bronte (12:52): What play was that?
Leigh (12:53): It was called Bucks, or Bag of Dicks. And it was a play that Jules and his graduating group from the VCA had created and had put on as part of Frisk, which used to be the VCA students little section of Melbourne Fringe Festival. And very often they organized to tour that same show to Adelaide Fringe Festival early the next year. And that's what he'd done. However, they lost an actor.
Bronte (13:20): I thank him every day.
Leigh (13:22): Thank you for choosing that touring theatre show over Bag of Dicks…
Bronte (13:27): Over Bag of Dicks, because I’ve met my future husband.
Leigh (13:28): Indeed. Actually, interesting story is that in Sydney, at that time, I knew that I wanted to get out of Sydney and I was thinking about how I could do that. And I saw Jules posts up about this show that was going to Adelaide Fringe. And I was like, “I haven't seen Jules in ages. This is a great opportunity.” So, I sent him a text late on a Friday night and I was like, “Hey Jules, guess what? I'm going to drive my car from Sydney to Adelaide on a massive road trip. And then we're going to meet in Adelaide. I'll see your show. We'll hang out. And then I'll come back to Melbourne with you. I'll hang out there. Maybe we can go see a game of footy and then I'll drive home.” Big, old trip. It was going to take me however long, six weeks, eight weeks, whatever - that was my plan. So, the next morning, Saturday morning, Jules called me… I saw his name come up with my phone, my heart skipped a beat…
Bronte (14:14): That sexy, sexy name
Leigh (14:15): My eyes widened. He says, “loved getting your text last night. Let's reconnect. We've always been great friends.”
Bronte (14:22): Did he say this to you?
Leigh (14:24): Side note: Jules and I have known each other since we were five years old.
Bronte (14:27): I love this. You guys haven't spoken in a while. Jules calls you. He's like, “Hey man, we’re such good friends, loved getting your text last night...”
Leigh (14:36): “…Remember when we were like 18 or 19 years old. And we did two plays together at ATYP in Sydney and then we've never worked together since then. Here's an opportunity to make that happen. Do you want to be in this play? Instead of come to see it how about you come to Melbourne, rehearse with me for three weeks and then we'll go to Adelaide together, be in a show together.” Holy cow. And I said, “Julian, yes.” And then within, I think six days, I was in Melbourne rehearsing the show and I was there for three weeks rehearsing.
And towards the end of that three weeks, there was a little new writing festival on called Beta Fest, on at Siteworks in Brunswick. And I almost didn't go, because Jules was down at Theatre Works in St Kilda. I was at his place, and the plan was for me to go to Beta Fest and meet Julz there. And then we'd have a fun oldl time around some new writing, meet a bunch of people... I walked down the street, I missed the tram. Then I walked back to Jules’ place because I didn't understand Melbourne trams and that there would be another one in five minutes. It's just such a strange city with this little toy train set all over town that takes you places! So I was like, “all right, well, I missed the tram. I'm an idiot. I may as well go buy beer, get drunk alone and cry.”
But instead Jules called me and said, “Hey, I'm actually getting a lift from Theatre Works to Brunswick. Would you like us to swing by and pick you up on the way?” And I was like, “yes, please.” So he did. And there at Beta Fest, we met in - well, you think it was on the way in or out of the bathroom or the kitchen - for the first time. But we actually spent more than a fleeting moment together for the first time outside in the courtyard. And I really wished that I didn't have my umbrella with me because I felt like I was using my umbrella as a prop, like some sort of posh asshole. And it would ruin any chance of making a favourable impression. I remember. So, so vividly how bad of a headache
Bronte (16:25): I remember so, so vividly how bad of a hair day it was for me. It was like a few weeks before I decided to fully cut all my hair off because I was just so sick of it. And I'd met this handsome man with a prop umbrella. And I was like, “WHY!? On today? Of all days?” And I was the same as you. I wasn't going to go. I was at a friend of mine's baby blessing and I was going to go, but I didn't know where I was. I think it was like one of my first times that I'd been in - Northcote, I think I was - I think we were Northcote or something. And I was like, “how do I get from Northcote to Brunswick? Like, where am I?” I know! Now it’s like well, well, well. And there was a beautiful friend of mine who was our first guest on the podcast, Sarah Fitzgerald… She wanted to go as well. And so, we were kind of like debating it back and forth. And then Sarah had a car so we just drove over, went to Beta Fest, both of us met you, hung out with Jules and Liv, watched a section of Liv’s play be read. And then afterwards, had a big old chat and yeah.
Leigh (17:26): I was a wonderful night.
Bronte (17:27): We caught the tram home, back into the city together and I stayed on… I'll just, I'll share with you, just because it's very cute… I stayed on for an extra stop because I didn't want to leave the tram. Because I was making jokes with a funny little boy, called Leigh.
Leigh (17:44): Actually Jules tells me later that he was slightly concerned with the amount that I was looking at you. But then he realized that you were looking at me in the same way. And he's like, “Oh no, this is okay. I don't have to de-creepify Leigh. He's not actually being a creep. He's just quite taken with someone and it's mutual. So we good.”
Bronte (18:03): Yeah. And then what, like two days later you went to Adelaide and I started second year at VCA.
Leigh (18:08): Indeed. And I think one drunken night in Adelaide, I sent you a message on Facebook and so began... the rest of our lives. It's funny that you always say how much you thought it was a bad hair day. Because
Bronte (18:22): Oh my God, it was awful, it had been raining and I had flat hair.
Leigh (18:25): No, you like rocked up and you were… it's just like totally natural. And I was like, this bad-ass powerful woman. Don't give a shit! She is what she is!
Bronte (18:34): She looks like fucking shit. And she just strutting.
Leigh (18:39): Don’t put those words in my mouth.
Bronte (18:41): Sorry.
Leigh (18:44): No way! You just like… It was glorious and flowing and it was, it was wonderful.
Bronte (18:52): Can you give us a little rundown of who you are and your history in the creative industries?
Leigh (18:56): Yeah, I'm an actor. I suppose I started to pursue acting after I left high school. I'd done a few plays in high school, but I wasn't particularly interested in the acting part of it. Even though, I think, at the time I was like, telling everyone that I was going to be an actor. But I didn't really know what that entailed and I didn't really, I don't think I really believed that. I just didn't know what else to do. And I'd found something that I enjoyed. But you know, I auditioned for my first school play in year 10 and I literally did it to meet people because I was lonely and I went to an all boys school and I was like, “Hey, girls school. I'll just hang out in the chorus and like, meet some females.”
However, I did not get in the chorus, I got a lead role. And really enjoyed it. So, once I left high school, I decided that I wanted to do a little bit more of it. And I went and did some shows at ATYP, the Australian Theatre for Young People in Sydney. And during one of those shows I got my first agent and I started going for auditions and I did a few commercials and I got a couple of bit parts on telly. And then I went for a big old holiday through Europe for about a year and a half, somewhere between a year and a half and two years I think. And came back. And it was only until maybe a couple, two or three years after I came back - And by this time I'm sort of 26, 27 - that I really decided that I did want to be an actor and that I did want to really work on my craft. Before that, I had just gotten by because I happened to fit a few casting types, but I had never really done any particular work on trying to improve the work, or the craft.
So, at that sort of later stage, sort of mid to late twenties, I decided to really apply myself to it. And that's when I really actually fell in love with the doing of it, again, and decided that, yes, this actually is what I want to do with my life. And I will continue to dedicate my life to it, but I'll actually do that. I'll actually do the dedicating of my life to it, as opposed to, telling everyone that that's what I was doing but really I was just, kind of, floating around, not doing much at all.
Bronte (21:01): So, how old were you when you started to make that more of a solid decision?
Leigh (21:05): I think I was about 26, 26 or 27. And then, it wasn't until probably I was even 28 that I was able to take that decision and turn it into action. Which I suppose, is a little bit later to come to it than a lot of people. A lot of people leave high school with a really keen desire to get into drama schools and carve themselves out a career. I didn't have that. I left high school, didn't want to go to uni. So, I started working full time for a year. And during that year I did a couple of shows with ATYP and things kind of just fell into my lap. And not in a huge way, but just in a way that it allowed me to sustain this illusion that I was actually doing something with my life.
Bronte (21:46): Do you feel like you followed curiosity a little bit more than making specific decisions?
Leigh (21:51): I don't think I had any particular curiosities when I was younger, in my early twenties, during that phase. I think, it was merely a thing that I could do, or say that I was doing, that allowed me to kind of float around. I was truly aimless. I genuinely enjoyed it when I did it. I did go to a few classes and stuff like that, but I think I gained a lot of satisfaction about, or a lot of satisfaction from, going to auditions, getting a commercial or getting a 50 worder, being really happy with that. And then going to a class, and it was like a beginners class, and I'd be one of the more skilled people in the beginner's class for some flukey reason. And that would make me feel good, as opposed to being really in tune with the work that was being undertaken in those classes and feeling like I had the capacity, or the desire, or the drive, to do that work. I was just, yeah, I wasn't engaged truly. I couldn't, upon reflection, I could not really call what I was doing then ‘being an actor.’ Living the life of an ‘artist.’ I was living the life of a student, except I wasn't studying.
Bronte (22:57): I feel like that's quite common though. I don't feel like… I was always very sure that acting was the path that I would follow, but also in saying that, it's such a loose path because it's not like: you go to uni, you get a job, you work full time, you retire. Like, it's not a clear, linear progression. So, I feel like people that didn't have that really clear idea of how they were going to progress as an artist, do kind of float a little bit and kind of explore things and maybe like… I know you did some creative writing and you studied a bit and you travelled a bit and you kind of just… I think that's more common than what we think.
Leigh (23:46): Probably. And look, it's easy for me to look back and be really critical of what I was doing then. And I think that's a trap that I fall into. Whereas academically, or you know, I do possess the knowledge that there's nothing wrong with what I was doing. It's just that now that I have this great love, I look back at those first eight years after leaving high school and I think to myself, “if I had the capacity to apply myself, if I'd had that drive, if I'd had that focus and that knowledge that this is actually what I want to do, then I could have achieved so much more.” Because that whole late teenagers, early twenties casting, just completely passed me by, because I was basically not as committed as I thought I was, or I didn't possess the ability at that time to hone in on my work.
I think I was a bad actor who just got lucky in a few very small ways. And when I say got lucky in a very few small ways, I mean, I booked a couple of 50 worders on home and away. I got a few commercials. Yeah, I popped up in other little random TV shows for a single episode. And I'm really, really grateful for those experiences. And I have learned a lot from them. But I think I fluked it. And if I had the ability to reflect on what I was doing that worked and what I was doing that didn't work and had the ability to focus enough to try and improve myself… not necessarily everything would be different - and I don't want everything to be different, I’m quite happy right now - but it's just one of those things that you reflect back on and go, “Geez, I wish I'd known at 18 like so many people do… instead of knowing at 28.”
Bronte (25:23): Yeah… How can you know at 18 what you want to do with your life? How can you know?! It sounds so harsh what you're saying about yourself and all this wishing that you could… that you ‘could have,’ and you ‘should have,’ and all of that. But you know, I think that's a very natural way to think and you have to, kind of, train your brain to become present more so than looking back on your life or looking forward on your life. You have to really concentrate on being like, “what do I have right now? And all those things that I did along the way… That's what got me here.”
Leigh (25:55): Yeah. I think I possess a certain perspective at the moment. You know, not that it's better than anyone else's, but it's unique to me and it's informed by all those years.
Bronte (26:05): Yeah. I mean, I always think about the fact that I could have fit in a degree before I went to the VCA. Like do you know what I mean? And I didn't. Instead I you know, I did six months of psychology and then I did six months of a film and television internship, and then I moved to Melbourne and then I kind of just hung out in Melbourne for two years, trying to figure out what I was doing at 19 on my own, in a new city. And then I got into VCA. And then a path kind of, things got a bit more clear and things got more solid in my day to day life… in terms of like, a consistent training, a consistent practice. But if had stuck - I think about it all the time - if I had just stuck with psychology, I would have a degree and I would be able to have a different job right now that's not hospitality or that's not like… but also in saying that I didn't enjoy it, I didn't want to do it. And so, at the time when I was 17 and I’d just left high school, I didn't want to do psychology. I just tried it for a thing that I thought I might be interested in because I was interested in human behaviour and human, you know, what we do and why we make choices and stuff. But that passion and that interest is in performing, not in being a psychologist.
Leigh (27:16): Yeah. A lot of actors are interested in psychology and there's a lot of crossover between actors who then have psychology degrees or who started to study psychology. I think, it's the same kind of thing that draws people to those two disciplines, is that they want to discover more about themselves. And having said that out loud, now I sort of realise that maybe there's a lot about, there was a lot about myself that I didn't want to confront, there was a lot in my past that I didn't want to have to confront. And that's probably why I lacked the discipline of sticking with, or being able to focus on, acting because I was sort of terrified of what was inside a little bit.
Bronte (27:53): Yeah. And I think that that's so reasonable. It's understandable that it takes a few more years before you kind of knuckle down and focus because you’re still in a phase where you need to be a little bit more flighty.
Leigh (28:08): I suppose for me, it also wasn't just with acting. It's not like I didn't have the capacity to focus on acting, but everywhere else I was being super productive or diligent. I started an arts degree and I remember in one of the semesters, it was a subject called Performance Studies… I was very fortunate that I was… I started at Sydney University and one of the, maybe only two or three years, that performance studies as an academic discipline was offered to undergraduates. And I absolutely loved it. I remember my first assignment at university was a very, very simple assignment, but it was for performance studies and I got 98% in it. And I was like, “Holy crap, I have never enjoyed academia or study in this way and have that mirror into me getting good results.” That was not something I was… that I associated with myself and I felt like it was familiar. By the end of that semester there was an assignment that I found really difficult and I didn't submit it. So, I got a non-complete fail for the subject. And I think that's more reflective of like, my inner turmoil than anything else. It was a subject ideally loved. And I absolutely tore myself to pieces because I had to let down the professor and made a really bad impression.
And then a bit later, a few years later, I thought I wanted to be a massage therapist. And so, I did half a degree of massage therapy. And then I was offered my first ever professional theatre role. And instead of deferring that degree or just like doing the gig and coming back and finishing it later, which I'm sure I could have organized, I just let it go. So I’m a semi qualified masseuse.
In fact, my only piece of post high school education that I've completed is a certificate four in fitness and I’m now a qualified personal trainer. And that happened when I was 33 years old. Which seems a bit silly to me.
Bronte (29:55): Why?
Leigh (28:57): Well, I feel like - not to toot my own horn here - but I'm the type of person that could have a bachelor degree, you know, or should have.
Bronte (30:06): But think about it. Like, you started these things and the interest didn't lie there, you know. Whereas you are still acting. The interest lies there, in performing. And…
Leigh (30:17): I think it's a combination of where interest lies and - I don't want to consistently sound like I'm beating myself up - but I think it's a very real fact that I didn't possess the diligence to stick with things. Whether I was enjoying them or not. If I felt bad within myself, everything would go.
Bronte (30:33): Do you feel like that's changed?
Leigh (30:35): I feel like it's a place I can slip back into if I'm not diligent with myself, but I've learned diligence. Not just with external tasks, but in terms of maintaining my own mental health and my own sort of stability inside myself, my own inner strength... And that allows me to, you know, for example, do the work on a script that I need to do, either before an audition, before a job, whether it's theatre, film, television. I possess the ability now to work really hard. In my early twenties, I learned the lines and I thought my job was done.
Bronte (31:08): It’s all a learning curve, you know. And the thing is that your attitude towards it has changed. And that's the thing to focus on, is that you DO do the work now. Yeah.
Leigh (31:17): Yeah. I'm sounding like I'm beating myself up for it. I'm just trying to reflect, honestly, I don't feel sad about talking about this right now. I just feel like that's a true reflection of my internal experience of those years of my life, with regards to my creative life. But I was a very unhappy young man and I was struggling with a lot. And I guess that's what I've sort of danced around, is that I just had this experience when I was a teenager that led me to be, kind of, crippled in a lot of ways with an internal turmoil and self-loathing and a lot of shame. And it prevented me from engaging with life outside of myself in any real way. And we're talking about it with relation to the arts and acting, but then it also transferred into non-artistic study - university, as we said - but it also translated into my relationship with my family, and to the fact that I didn't maintain friendships, and to the fact that I was drinking a lot.
That first professional theatre gig that I got, which I was super stoked about... It was a very small role and it was four weeks of rehearsals and six weeks of shows. And after every single day of work, I would drive to a bottle shop and I'd buy a six pack of beer and at least one long neck, and I would stay up until I'd finished drinking all of it. And then I would go back to work the next day. And I was just really happy that I could afford to buy beer.
I see my career as an actor as having two distinct periods: up until the age of about 28, and then 28 and beyond. And the thing that separates those two periods is, as I mentioned, having the intestinal fortitude to buckle down and knuckle down and do the work. And seek out good teachers, and be involved, be in those rooms, and work hard when you're in the classes to learn and to grow. But the thing that gave me the ability to do that, it wasn't just something that happened with age, it's because I went through a patch of time from between about 26 to 28, where I consciously tackled things, or confronted things, within myself. I admitted to myself that I had this trauma that was undealt with that was getting in my way.
So, there was one decision of like, “yes, I do want this for my life.” And then after having made that decision, there became this necessity to confront that trauma, and to build in myself at least some amount of self-love so that I could then go forward in a way that I would want to go forward.
I don't think I would have the courage to be as vulnerable an actor as I am now… I would have nowhere near that ability to be vulnerable, had I not confronted that trauma. And if there was one thing that I would say to every actor that really wants to pursue the life of an actor and do the best work they possibly can, you'll know within yourself if there is something in your life or in your history or in your past, that's holding you back. And I'm not saying you have to delve down into this depressive, deep dive, like they sometimes get you to do in drama school. You don't have to be broken down to be built back up in the mould of an “actor,” in inverted commas. That's all rubbish. But what you do need to do is get to the point where you forgive yourself for whatever you feel like you've done. You realize that it's not your fault, and you'll let go of shame. I would say that that's vital. I think it was another thing that I heard you speak about recently, that vulnerability comes hand in hand with shame. And I think that's really, really true. And every time you're vulnerable is the potential for shame.
And shame can still be a shadow that passes over your life. Like, it's a normal experience, a common experience, but it… you need to know how to deal with that. I was paralysed by shame. I thought everything that I experienced was my fault. It was because of some defect in my humanity that allowed this all to happen. And that through that defect, I had written the story of the rest of my life: that I would never find love that was able to be maintained over a long period of time; I would never be able to have a career in the industry that I wanted to have a career in; I would never be able to finish tertiary education and have a career in any industry; that I would end up working for Bunnings or as a barista for the rest of my days. I was convinced of that at 25. So, if you're in that kind of hole, do the really, really, really, really hard work of just admitting that this thing is in your way
And start the process of deconstructing it for yourself. And it's probably the thing in my life that I'm proudest of having accomplished. I'm by no means perfect. I don't have amazing mental health every single day of my life now, but I built the strength within myself to deal with pretty much anything that comes up.
Bronte (35:60): What have you been working on more recently?
Leigh (36:02): Well, after I met you, as you know, I then moved to Melbourne. Which was a very, very good decision. Creatively, since coming to Melbourne, I have almost exclusively been involved in theatre, which is a little bit of a departure for me because after those few plays I did at ATYP in my early twenties. Most of my work had been in television. And then since moving to Melbourne, oh, I had done a couple of features, as well…
Bronte (36:33): Just a couple of features.
Leigh (36:35): And then, since moving to Melbourne, you know, the theatre industry here is so different, I feel, to what it is in Sydney. I felt in Sydney - and not to disparage anyone who's a part of this industry, like they're all talented, lovely people - but I just felt like I wasn't in that clique. And there was no way for me to get in. I couldn't prove myself through my work ethic or my performances. I didn't want to go out and like, sniff Coke with a bunch of other actors. And I felt like that was a potential way for me to get in and get auditions, but that wasn't who I was. And I just felt that I wasn't getting a way in there. And so, one of the great things about Melbourne is I've found that everyone was so open to meet me…
Bronte (37:19): And you'd done a… You'd already worked with a few people before even moving to Melbourne. Like, you'd worked with Bad Ducks and, you know, I was around as well trying to introduce you to theatre people that I’d met, and I took you to all the shows that I would go to, and do the theatre rounds.
Leigh (37:35): I was very fortunate. I was very fortunate to have worked on Bad Ducks. And so, those people had sort of witnessed my work and then they'd spoken about it and other people had come and seen that iteration of it. And then, obviously, having a wonderful theatre date partner in you, just going around and meeting a lot of people. And so whilst, you know, I'm not working main stage on the reg at the moment, I feel like there's opportunity for me on stages in Melbourne. And I didn't feel that way in Sydney. So that's what I've been doing mostly, since I came to Melbourne.
Very recently, I have been working on a little web series that I made. Which was entirely improvised. It was shot whilst literally on the job working as a schools crossing supervisor, or a lollipop man.
Bronte (38:26): In the first few weeks of lockdown, the first lockdown in Victoria.
Leigh (38:29): That’s right. In the first lockdown period in Victoria. Which means that all the schools were empty. So, there were no children that I to help cross the road. It was a real Waiting for Godot job.
Bronte (38:42): And you made such awesome content from it. We were saying yesterday, we were talking about the fact that if we didn't have King of the Crossing to be working on at the moment in this double lockdown, I don't know what we would be doing. What would we be doing?
Leigh (38:56): Our whole experience of this enforced version of isolation, or semi isolation, or lockdown, whatever you want to call it… our whole experience of it would be so different because it's a big task.
Bronte (39:09): Yeah. It's a huge task.
Leigh (39:11): It’s a big task. I filmed every shift for two weeks, and there were two shifts a day for an hour each. And there was so little to do during those hour shifts that I very frequently had over 50 minutes of footage of me just talking to the camera.
Bronte (39:28): And we got into a good rhythm. You would cut it down from the 50 minutes of footage down to about 15. And then I’d jump in and cut that 15 down to under five.
Leigh (39:35): And then we'd find tune and then…
Bronte (39:38): And then send it off to Sydney to Rick Scully.
Leigh (39:42): Rick Scully, my younger brother who is an absolute genius musician.
Bronte (39:46): He's also created the music for this podcast. He is so talented.
Leigh (39:50): Created the music for this podcast, created the music for my web series King of the Crossing… also did all the original music for a short film that I wrote and produced and starred in back in Sydney called Harm. And is also in a - well, they've just broken up - but in a rad band called Yon Yonson.
Bronte (40:07): Oh my God. Check out Yon Yonson. I'll link it in the show notes. It's beautiful. And his partner Ellen, Ellen Simmons, did the animation - for the first time, her first attempt at animating. And it's just so good.
Leigh (40:22): Yeah! I was speaking to Rick on the phone, and I think I was on speaker phone in his car, and I was like, “this is so rad. Thank you for doing the music. I'm getting all these crazy ideas. Like, I want to contact an old school friend to see if he'd do some animation for it, but I just really don't think he'd do it for free. And I haven't spoken to him in a long time…” And then Ellen was just sitting there and she's like, “can I have a go at the animation?” And I was like, “you do animation?” She's like, “no, but I'm a graphic designer...”
Bronte (40:43): “I should do animation!”
Leigh (40:45): “I'll give it a crack.” And what she's created is so beautiful.
Bronte (40:49): And perfect.
Leigh (40:52): And so cute. It really fits it so well.
Bronte (40:53): And it's just lifted the web series into something more legit than we thought it would be
Leigh (40:58): It’s so bizarre. I literally started... I only started filming myself to pass the time whilst working. That is the only thing I thought I was doing. I never thought any of it would see the light of day - best case scenario there would be like tiny little five second grabs that I'd chuck up on my private Instagram story or post to Facebook or whatever. And now, all of a sudden, I had this masses and masses of footage and I realised I could get little three to five minute chunks out of it. And then with music and an animated intro and credit sequence, it's now like an actual professional looking series, even though it was filmed with the front facing camera on my phone.
Bronte (41:35): It's so much fun. It's so much fun. I think it's so amazing that you have family that's also creative. That you can collaborate with. Like, you have Rick do the music for these things that you're creating. And Ellen is a graphic designer and can do this animation. And your mom is a wonderful artist. Your dad is a poet. Like, you just have such a creative family. And I just feel like it breeds this creativity and…
Leigh (42:04): Even my older sister, working as a clinical psych, she's - on the lowdown, just for her own enjoyment - writing a little fantasy novel and has been for years! So just a little shout out to Alana's creativity, as well.
Bronte (42:17): Love it! And then Marks creativity… Marks fine-tuned senses as a...
Leigh (42:21): Oh, my word! His palette. Mark is my brother-in-law and also a very, very close friend and also a wine expert.
It's funny that you mentioned my family's creativity because growing up, when I started to get interested in acting, I thought it was like the black sheep. I thought it was the only one. Because my dad's a poet, yeah, but he's also an actuary. So, he’s like pure maths. And that's like, yes, in my simplistic teenage or childhood mind, that's how I viewed him. As being someone who is academic or someone who is intelligent in that way.
Bronte (43:01): But surely like, he has influenced - not necessarily the way that you write - but that kind of poetic enjoyment of writing.
Leigh (43:12): I think so! I got very few glimpses of my dad's poetry when I was younger and growing up. And they would often be in the form of him like… I can't remember what anniversary it was, maybe 20th or something, but he wrote this poem for my mum and got it printed out on this beautiful paper and had like these tiny little gemstones dotted around the poem. And he got it professionally framed and stuff. But somehow, that didn't infiltrate my young mind because like, he's just an actuary that wrote a poem… as opposed to someone who has this wonderful creative soul. I always knew he was kind of a softie.
Bronte (43:50): He hides behind a hard shell.
Leigh (43:52): I think he has to. And it's not that hard, if you know him.
Bronte (44:02): When did you start realising you were really good at doing voices?
Leigh (44:06): Oh, I don't know if I ever realised I was good at it. I don't know that I am good at it.
Bronte (44:13): Au contraire.
Leigh (43:15): I don't know that I ever realised I was good at it, but I do know that I always did it. Even as a kid, I think I could quote Monty Python's, The Holy Grail and The Life of Brian from beginning to end, by the time I was 10. And we'd do all the voices. Having a younger Rick, six and a half years younger than me…. So, when he was growing up, he and I used to talk in like… I used to just copy his voice. And so we would talk in like this kind of baby voice all the time. And I would speak that 80% of all words spoken in that voice. In fact, when Rick got a little bit older and started to actually be able to pronounce my name, I used to then correct him. So, he used to call me Geese. So, he'd like run through the house, looking for me like, “Geese! Geese! Geese!”
Bronte (44:58): That's too cute.
Leigh (44:59): And then like, a couple of years later, he'd be like, “Leigh!” And I'd be like, “don't call me Leigh. Call me Geese. Please. I am a goose. There are more than one of me. I am Geese. Shut the hell up, Rick!”
Bronte (45:14): Oh, that's so funny. That reminds me of my older brother. His name is Jacob, but he went through this phase… He went through this phase in early high school where he would only respond to ‘Jake.’ And I would be like the annoying younger sister to be like, “your fucking name is Jacob. And I'm going to call you Jacob until I die. Jacob!” And he'd be like, “I'm not responding. My name is Jake.” And I'd be like, “Jacob!” You can imagine it would just go on and on and on.
Leigh (45:38): I can imagine. You little shit.
Bronte (45:42): I’m such a shit! I still to this day call him Jacob.
Leigh (45:46): That's hilarious.
Bronte (45:48): I want a little glimpse into your voice world.
Leigh (45:50): Okay.
Bronte (45:52): Recently we've been watching Big Mouth. If anyone's watched Big Mouth… it's a good time. It’s all about puberty. It's so good. And very, do you think ‘crude’ is the word?
Leigh (46:04): Oh, there's definitely crudeness in there as well, but it's kind of got a heart of gold. And it's just trying to do like, a good thing and do right by all different populations. And it might not get it perfect every time, but it's doing its best.
Bronte (46:17): The poor kids all have hormone monsters. And one of the poor kids, Nick, gets a really old hormone monster, and Leigh…?
Leigh (46:28): Alright…
[Rick the Hormone Monster] Hey, man, hey hey, what are you gonna do? No, but, seriously. What are you gonna do? Right on man. Yeah man. You’re the man, man. No seriously though, you are the man. I love you, man.
Bronte (46:44): It's so good. It gets me every time. And then, I'll be like, in the background being the female hormone monster and try to be like…
[Connie the Hormone Monstress] My girl – her parents are going through a divorce. Get out of her way! She’s gonna steal things she ain't gonna need and you ain't gonna to stop her.
But you have this like, really amazing way of just capturing a voice and I’m like – wooooo!
Leigh (47:08): Well, yeah. I don't know. Thank you. I'm glad you enjoy them because they come forth from myself with alarming regularity that I have no control over.
Bronte (47:20): You showed me one the other day. It was like a… you were singing a song and you were like…
Leigh (47:27): Oh Gavin …So Gavin DeGraw. I don't know why this song has always stuck with me, but it is just this bizarre song about like, he doesn't want to be anything other than who he is because he doesn't need to be anything else. And the first lyrics to the song I find so hilarious… I'll tell you the lyrics then I’ll sing the chorus.
The lyrics are: “I don't need to be anything other than a prison guards son. I don't need to be anything other than a specialist's son.” And I'm like, yeah, that is remarkably specific to your unique situation in the world and kudos to you for writing a song that, whilst has a universal message - it's just about you.
Bronte (48:08): Okay. Okay. Hit us with the chorus.
Leigh (48:11): How many specialist/prison guard combinations do you reckon there are out there in the world?
Bronte (48:15): Well, there'd be a handful. Maybe not many but a handful.
Leigh (48:20): How does the song go?
Bronte (48:24): [sings] I don’t wanna be anything other than what I’ve been tryna be lately
Leigh (48:32): That has to stay in. Please!
Bronte (48:33): Absolutely not. Yeah.
Leigh (48:35): [sings] I don't want to be anything other that what I’ve been tryna be lately. All I have to do is think of me and I’ve peace of mind. I’m tired of lookin’ round and wondering what I gotta do, or who I'm supposed to be. I don’t wann be anything other than me. I don’t wanna be, yeah…. Et cetera.
Bronte (49:06): The best thing is your face as you do it. You're just like, so disappointed with yourself for singing it. You're just like, “Oh, I fucking hate this song.”
Leigh (49:16): Well, I can't… it doesn't. Yeah. There's something about… well, it is a bad song, but it is a hilarious song. And I do love Gavin for releasing it and bring it into my world. I also can't tell if I'm actually doing a good job with these headphones on of the impression.
Bronte (49:35): I’m enjoying them.
Leigh (49:36): Well, that's good.
Bronte (49:37): That's all that matters because let's be honest, this is for me. Who else do we have?
Leigh (49:43): Oh, there's Morty. The other hormone monster.
Bronte (49:45): Do the other hormone monster.
Leigh (49:47): [Morty the Hormone Monster] All right, Andrew. Here we go. There's a woman coming up to you. She looks great. I think she likes you. Oh my God. She's smiling. Hit her in the tit! Hit her in the tit! Yeah!
Bronte (49:57): What about you do Andrew, and I can do Lola. I’ll be Lola. You be Andrew.
Leigh (50:02): [Andrew] Lola, I am not sure that I want to keep seeing you.
Bronte (50:06): [Lola] Andrew! C’mon! Let’s just rub fronts.
Leigh (50:10): [Andrew] Ahhh I mean, okay.
Bronte (50:12): [Lola] Andrew. Oh, yeah okay…
Leigh (50:15): [Andrew] Oh, that does feel real good.
Bronte (50:18): [Lola] Andrew, oh my God, you’re so hard. Andrew!
Leigh (50:19): [Andrew] Lola! Oh! No, not again.
Bronte (50:26): [Lola] Is it meant to be that wet?
Leigh (50:28): [Andrew] I need to go home.
Bronte (50:31): [Lola] Andrew, don’t you leave me here. You were gonna buy me food.
Clearly we've been watching Big Mouth. You know what else you're really good at? Accents. You’re so disappointed with me.
Leigh (50:46): Am I though?
Bronte (50:48): You are! What about your German accent? Your German accent is really good.
Leigh (50:52): [German accent] My German accent. Well, my German accent is actually informed by ze fact zat I've spent quite a bit of time in Germany, in various different parts of Germany, but specifically close to ze Amsterdam border. Because… actually it's ze Netherlands border… Holland, fucking Holland.
Bronte (51:04): Yeah, it doesn't… it sounds like, kind of German, but also like there's something else in there.
Leigh (51:10): [German accent] I'm not trying to overdo ze German-ness. I think zats where a lot of people fall down. Germans actually learned English from a very young age. And so zey have a great ability to speak English and other languages as well, mostly French, but…
Bronte (51:26): Have I've ever been to France?
Leigh (51:28): [French accent] I have been to France, yes. Is this what you were talking about when you wanted me to stay in…?
Bronte (51:34): Have you been to Norway?
Leigh (51:36): [Norwegian accent] Not too sure about err Norway. I've never been to Norway, but from what I can err tell from their movies and books and things, it’s a nice place. They have fjords, Vikings were from there, they like to pillage… yeah.
Bronte (51:50): And you've been to America. You went to New York for a time, did you not?
Leigh (51:56): [New York Accent] Yeah. I went to New York. I was there. It was a good city. I didn't mind it. You know, it was pretty busy for my taste, but let's face it - If you can get up at two in the morning and buy a hamburger, I'm going to like the joint.
Bronte (52:06): I remember when I was trying to learn a New York accent for Where's My Money, when you and I were both in a show together at the end of last year. And it was, all of us were going to be from New York. And so, I learnt my New York accent by watching Russian Doll, which I love. Because I was like, I need a woman who speaks with a New York accent, so I don't sound like a caricature. And I was getting it, and I'm not good at accents so… I'm not, I'm not good at accents. And I know that. So, what I do is I fucking practice and I sound dreadful for so, so long, until it kind of just flips and then it sounds right.
Leigh (52:43): And you do get it.
Bronte (52:44): So, I was doing my New York accent for Where's My Money and it came to about a week before the show opens, and Beng is like… Beng Oh, our wonderful director, was kind of looking at me and he was like, “no, you know, I think, I think she needs to be like a Southern Belle. Like, can you do a Southern accent?” And I was like, “are you fucking with me, Beng?!” Because, oh my God. I was so excited to do my New York accent. And then he's like, “nah, try Southern.”
Leigh (53:14): Bless Beng. I loved working with Beng. I would never say a bad word about Beng. But that was a difficult request.
Bronte (53:15): Oh my God, Beng is such an angel… Never, not one that he could hear anyway. I kid, we love you Beng.
Leigh (53:21): Wonderful director, wonderful human.
Bronte (53:23): Wonderful human. But I was very lucky that I had also done a show where I'd been required to do a Transatlantic accent, which is a mixture of like American and RP. And I'd worked my butt off on that Transatlantic accent as well. And it, kind of, by the end of our rehearsals, it had an almost kind of, more of a Southern kind of lean to it than an RP lean to it. So, I kind of just fell into the Southern accent for Where's My Money, which was, which was fine. But your accent's are always so spot on. Okay. Okay. Not always, but they’re good! You pick them up so quickly, like you watched a few episodes of Norsemen and then you suddenly were talking in this fucking Norse accent. I was like, what the fuck?
Leigh (54:12): Well, look… to any accent coaches out there, please do not be fooled into me thinking that my accents are perfect. Feel free to send in some notes, some little tips… but I think you're right. I pick up 80 to 90% of it through listening.
Bronte (54:27): Hmm. I think it's the same with your voices as well. Like, your voices just come from you listening to something and then you play around and then it's just spot on.
Leigh (54:34): And I get inspired. If something's fucking hilarious, I want to feel the sensation of saying that. It's experimenting with your voice, like voice actors in cartoons particularly, because they’re so dynamic…
Bronte (54:45): They’re so fun! Such a dream of mine, to be a voice actor.
Leigh (54:47): And just to feel how that feels. If I can mimic it, then I can feel like the range that they go through and what they do with their vocal chords and…
Bronte (54:57): It's so fascinating. It's so cool.
Leigh (54:59): Yeah, it's really cool. So, like it's a way of experimenting.
Bronte (55:02): Who were you doing the other day?
Leigh (55:05): Oh, Christopher Walken. See, they’re is so many good Christopher Walken impressions out there.
[Christopher Walken] You know, I can't even remember right now what movies Christopher Walken is in. He talks like a strange man.
Bronte (55:21): And then just transition that into Christoph Waltz.
Leigh (55:25): I can’t do Christoph Waltz!
Bronte (55:27): He’s my favourite! I get Christopher Walken and Christoph Waltz confused all the time. And the other day you started talking like Christopher Walken. And I was like, “Oh my God, have you seen the time that Christoph Waltz did this thing on YouTube?” And you were like… different person.
Leigh (55:44): Indeed.
Bronte (55:48): What brings you joy creatively?
Leigh (55:50): Oh, yes… like, when I get out of a scene or something, and you've had that feeling that you're like, yes, that! That was it. That was it! And not necessarily that, like I've done it “right.” But me and the other actor were connecting, and we created something real. I always say, I would far prefer to watch a connected, honest performance than one that has all the technically correct choices for the character. Like, I don't give a crap. If you're technically correct, and you've made all the “right choices,” in inverted commas, but you're not connected to anyone, then you're going to bore the crap out of me. That means you're intelligent. That doesn't mean you're a good actor. That's just my little spiel.
Bronte (56m 26s): I love it. No, that makes me think about times that I've experienced that similar sensation of being like, “fuck, we were, we were in that, and that was fucking good.” And it was good because it was connected and it was real.
Leigh (56:35): And then, if all you have to do is go back and fine tune your choices… You've solved the big - like the difficult parts done. And also, if you're filming it, like there's a take in the can of like incredibly connected performance. And you feel it, it's like this visceral thing. Like my temperature, my body temperature goes through the roof. I start sweating. I start stinking. I have a unique body odour from when I'm acting well, seriously, I'll get up in a Meisner class and I'll sit down in that chair, and as soon as I sit down, I'll just start excreting this really unique smelling sweat, which is disgusting, right. And I'm so sorry for everyone that has to put up with that. But it's this unique sensation in my body. I never feel more full of energy and joy in my life.
Bronte (57:20): Do you have something in your day that you just have to do? And if you don't do it, you don't feel right.
Leigh (57:23): I have to move. I have to move my body, whether it's a yoga or a stretch routine in the morning or a workout or a walk around the block. If I get to like the evening and I realized that I spent all day either sitting at my desk or laying on the couch or whatever, and I haven't done one of those things… It's suddenly this light bulb moment of like, “Oh, that's why you feel like complete crap.”
Bronte (57:47): Do you have a daily practice?
Leigh (57:49): I've gone through a number of different daily practices in my life. The one I'm having at the moment is a morning stretch. And then over breakfast, I get my little diary out and I write a little to do list for the day. And I find that particularly useful during lockdown because I have like 24 hours a day, seven days a week free. And a blank canvas like that can be really intimidating. And for me, I know in my past, if I had that sort of schedule, then I would just lull. I would fall into a depression or I would… something. I wouldn't have the skills to make sure that I was mentally maintained during that period. But now I do. And I'm very grateful for that. And so, part of that is to do that little to do list in the morning. And then as I complete the tasks throughout the day, I like to go and check the box.
Bronte (58:38): I think it's a really good way of feeling like you've accomplished something. Even if that thing… like for me in those first few weeks of lockdown, it was like, me accomplishing something was me going for a walk. And that's all I had to do all day. Or it was like, me accomplishing something was getting up in the morning, having breakfast and then making a cup of tea. And it was like, that's all I have to do. It's such a different level of accomplishment than what we were having pre-lockdown, which may have been like a huge list of like heaps of things you have to do in a day and you just get it done. You’re just firing it out and you really… that's what your body and your mind is used to. And now it's, we're in such a slower pace that it's like… I mean, we have things that we're doing, like we're both editing things at the moment. So. we have actual tasks that we can be doing, but a really simple way to help in this time in particular, I think, is yeah, is to have a checklist.
Leigh (59:27): Yeah. I think it's incredibly useful. And after a couple of weeks of that, like it wasn't instantaneous, but after a couple of weeks of that, I did discover the ability to allow myself to rest. And it's now not this automatic thing and it doesn't happen every day, but I recognize the feeling of having that productivity guilt, and then I know what to do with that feeling. And I go to my checklist and everything's ticked, or maybe not everything's ticked, but it's also like 5:30, six o'clock… I'm like, no, this is relax time. I'm allowed to do that. And so that's a real weight off my shoulders.
Bronte (59:59): I've spoken about it a few times that getting the kittens at the start of lock down was a huge, hugely amazing thing to do because they have taught me to rest.
Leigh (1:00:08): I just need to give props to you for that decision because we had like one and a half conversations about the possibility of adopting kittens and all of a sudden on a Saturday night, Bronte looks at me and goes, “we can get one tomorrow.” And I was like, okay, cool. And then she looks at me and says, “we could get two.” And I was like, yeah, two cool. Let's do it. And then the next morning we had two kittens!
Bronte (1:00:28): We had two kittens that were like so… they were covered in mud, and they had fleas, and they were so scared, and one of them had a sick tummy. Aand now they're just, they're like four times the size that they were. And they both can’t fit in their little bed anymore, and they’re such good friends and they sleep with us and it's just… there is so much love and joy sprouting from them.
Leigh (1:00:51): But you’re right. They were like this wonderful exercise in mindfulness, just being a kitten owner. Because you just put your attention onto them and all of a sudden, all of your inner demons were taken care of for however long you allowed that to last. And that could be three hours in the middle of the day. Easily.
Bronte (1:01:06): Yeah. Which was, for me, I have never, ever done that in my life. I've always been so like jittery. And I think it's because I have so much anxious energy that I've always needed to move and do things. And then we had these kittens, and I could sit on the couch while the world was going through a global pandemic, and just pat a kitten for two hours. And it was okay to be still.
Leigh (1:01:29): And it's not just that they're a source of comfort, but they're actually a vehicle through which you can feel real positivity and joy on a regular basis. And for some people that's a real struggle, particularly in times like this, and they just bring it out.
Bronte (1:01:46): What's the thing you're most proud of that you've done in your creative career?
Leigh (1:01:50): Oh, the thing that I'm most proud of, that's a tough one. One is getting to the age of 28 and rediscovering a love for acting and then having the gumption to face my inner demons and build up my foundation of inner mental strength, to a point where I could follow through in doing all the work necessary in order to become a good actor that is capable of giving good performances. And that is capable of doing all that work, every single time. I'm really proud of that because that's more of kind of a personal accomplishment, but it directly relates to something that I'm really passionate about. And it allows me to actually live as an artist and to actually have no shame in calling myself an actor.
In terms of a single performance, I think my performance in When The Light Leaves was something that I was really proud of. And it was just such a wonderful experience.
Bronte (1:02:47): And a really important show.
Leigh (1:02:49): Yeah. A really important show that was tapping into something just so beautiful and so relevant. For everyone listening, When The Light Leaves was about a couple and one of them was diagnosed with a terminal cancer. And then it explored that character's journey towards wanting to take control of their own end of life. And so it's about end of life choices, about euthanasia, about voluntary assisted dying is the more sort of correct term.
Bronte (1:03:19): And it was on during the time that new laws were passed in Victoria.
Leigh (1:03:22): Thats right. During our first week of our first run at La Mama, last year, the law had already been passed, but it came into effect. So it was the first time that people were actually going to be able to apply for voluntary assisted dying in Victoria. Which is also the first law of its kind anywhere in Australia, except for the one about 20 years ago, in the Northern Territory, who introduced the first, ever, in the world, voluntary assisted dying law. And it was in effect for two weeks before it got overruled by the federal government, because of course, the Northern Territory is a territory and not a state. So it's laws, that it brings into effect for its population, can be overruled by a federal government. And the conservative government who was in power at the time, overruled that law. And only two people had access to the use of that law. Two weeks may be a wrong, a false recollection on my part, but it was in, it was in effect for a very short period.
Bronte (1:04:17): And it's still now, like there is still a lot of hoops to jump through. And there's still a lot of work that needs to be done in regards to voluntary assisted dying. But I know, I've never had to face it, and I don't know what my choice would be… but I know for me, it links quite closely to my decision as a woman to do what I choose with my body. And that anyone should be able to choose what they do with their own body. And so I just… when someone is terminally ill and they are ready and they are happy and content with their decision, it's their choice ultimately. And for someone in a big room, in a big house to say, “no, no, you're not allowed to. It's against the law because I don't think you should do that.” I just think that's, it's a really tricky… it's such a tricky position to be left in and an awful position to be left in if you were ill and unhappy. And I don't, it's yeah. There's so many layers to it and it's tricky. But the show, When The Light Leaves, delved into that, and it was really, really beautifully dealt with. And really powerful.
Leigh (1:05:23): Yeah, it was. It was a beautiful show and we were so lucky, so lucky, to have such a beautiful play written by Rory Godbold, based on some of his real life experiences. And then a wonderful director in Jayde Kirchert, who afforded us the opportunity to discover our characters and play within the scenes and used methods far beyond, “all right, let's have another crack at this scene.” Which is just such a joy to work with, somebody who has so many avenues of attack, avenues of exploration. And then the cast that we had, the four of us, we just got along so well, and we were nurturing and caring and giving and generous.
Bronte (1:06:04): It was really beautiful to watch you go through that experience. Like it was, it was such heavy content, but you were supported the whole way through. And it was really, really, really encouraging to see.
Leigh (1:06:15): It was incredibly heavy content. But it was really life-affirming in some ways. You know, it's strange when you're dealing with end of life choices… except I stepped off the stage and went, “this is what I want to do with my life while I'm alive.” And that was beautiful.
Bronte (1:06:34): Is there something that you struggle with in this industry?
Leigh (1:06:40): It's an interesting one because obviously we're in an industry and… you'd hope that most people who are a part of the industry are incredibly passionate about it and just derive so much joy from it and just love it to bits, and that's me. But, you know, it's imperfect. It's far from perfect. And there are also bits that are really challenging and not enjoyable to do or to witness or to take part in or to be subjected to.
I guess something that I'm struggling with at the moment is that, I have thoughts about in the future being in a position to direct, produce, write… or be in some sort of role that is creating content or contributes to the creation of content. And at this point in time, I think it's a really important question to ask yourself is, “what stories am I able to tell? What stories should I be telling? And if there's a particular story that I am really passionate about, that I'm not in a position to tell, what's the best way that I can contribute to that idea coming to fruition?” Yeah. I think that's a challenging one and I'm fully aware of the privilege I have as a cis white straight middle class male. And, you know, I do not feel that I don't have a place in storytelling in Australia, or the world. I feel that I have a role to play, not because of my colour, or my gender, or my sexual orientation, or my financial upbringing, or anything like that. Simply because I'm really passionate about it. And I love it to pieces. I think some of the work I do can provide value to that environment.
And so the question becomes, “how do I provide value while not detracting from others opportunities to do the same and not making it about me.” And then the other question is, “when is the right time to pursue an opportunity in content creation or storytelling that is about me?” Because I don't think it's wrong for a performer to make something about themselves or for themselves, but I think there's a right time to do it and a right way to do it.
Like King of the Crossing, that's just me on camera. There's no one else there. Like lovable character is as this bloke, this nameless bloke is, he's also a cis straight white male. He's got relevance to the social climate of today for other reasons, because of like the global situation and governmental policies regarding welfare and regarding their decisions to assist certain industries or individuals in this COVID-19 sort of era. The ways that they've gone about providing assistance to different people from different areas of life. There's commentary there, if you look for it, I think, in King of the Crossing. But he's still like, the most privileged version of that character that could have been iterated. But I genuinely don't see how I could have made that without putting myself in the middle of it, simply because of the way it was made.
Bronte (1:09:30): Yeah. It's a really important thing to be considering. How can we as cis white middle class people still be doing important things without taking up the space that could be someone else's. Do you know what I mean? That could be someone who is not cis white middle class... And it's, you know, I did a production recently… I've done many productions recently, in fact, nearly every production I've done since leaving drama school have been entirely white casts. And each time I'm in a cast like that, I go through that questioning of, “should I even be here?” This is a role that I could leave and make space for someone who is, who has not been given the space this time. But then there's also that debate on the other side of it that I did talk to Sarah Fitzgerald about, is that if you step back with our limited power that we have in terms of like the hierarchy of where we are in the creative industries right now - you and I personally - that role may not go to the person that we intend it to go to, because whoever is in charge will just give it to the next white person in line, or the next cis person in line.
And that, what I struggle with, is not yet having the power to be making those decisions. It's why I think it's really important that we make our own work. Because then we make the decisions of who gets cast. Or that we fund work that is created by people of colour or people in the LGBTQI community. And we somehow move our focus from what can we do in terms of like, “what show will I get cast in next?” To be, “what show can I make to create space for people that are not as privileged as me?”
Leigh (1:11:28): It's a really interesting thing because, I guess on two prongs. One is, totally agree with that. But then, when you're in the position of showmaker, director, writer, producer, whatever it is, even in that role, if you're given a grant or a spot on a stage or something like that…
Bronte (1:11:42): We're still who we are, we're still… we still come from where we come from. Yeah.
Leigh (1:11:46): Good as our intentions may be, there may be someone from a marginalized community who was rejected for that application, that grant application, or that spot on a local independent stage. So, it keeps going up the line. And also, the thing is that personally, yeah, I have ideas about wanting to write things and wanting to direct things. And I'm interested in exploring that in the future. I'm not in a hurry and I still want a big part of my career being an actor for hire getting on the best quality productions I can possibly do. I love acting, I don't need to direct, I don't need to write, I want to do those things, I want to get better at them. I want to have that experience. I want to have that be part of my creative life, my creative career, but I want to be an actor.
I want to work with amazing directors. I want to work with auteur filmmakers. I want to go and work with just incredible people. I want to go and work with Phoebe Waller-Bridge, and I want to go and work with Spike Lee. I want to go and work with Jordan Peele. I want to go and work with Barry Jenkins, who did Moonlight. And so, you know, in that respect of still wanting to be an actor for hire, and wanting to work on certain types of productions, I can't guarantee that every one of those productions is going to tick every single box that I feel like it should be ticking. And if I'm at the point where I'm working for Barry Jenkins and Jordan Peele and Phoebe Walbridge and people like this… like on a show that’s show run by Shonda Rhimes, holy crap, I'd give my left leg to do that… but I can't guarantee that. But if I'm at the point where those are the jobs that are being offered, like in some hypothetical perfect version of my future career, then I might have the power to have some sort of influence over making sure that a few of those other boxes are checked. But at the moment, if I'm offered a wonderful opportunity as an actor for hire, exactly what you said before, and exactly what you talked about with Sarah in your first episode, I'm not in a position to make any change.
So what do I do? Do I take the job and then try and start a discussion from the inside? Or is it not my place to even have that discussion because it doesn't directly affect me? And I might just getting offended on behalf of everyone else who is affected? And does that make me a little bit more of an asshole and less of an ally? I don't actually understand the answers to these questions. That's something that I'm still discovering. That's something that I struggle with.
And then, I guess the other thing that I really struggle with, which is far more selfish is just when I get an audition for a role that I know I can do a really good job of, and I know I'm a really good casting for, and then I don't get it… I hate it. I've learned, I've learned to walk out of the audition room and forget about the job. I've learned to send the self tape away and forget about it. I've learned to deal with rejection, but every now and then that comes up a role and you think, “I am perfect for this.” And you put your audition down and you're like, maybe it's not the best audition you've done in the world, but you're like, “I did a good job. This is a good audition. This is worth a call back, surely. Give me an opportunity.” And then when it doesn't come back, you think, “what is it that I'm doing wrong? Or, “what more can I do?” And of course the answer is to just keep working on your craft and not take it personally because there's 1001 reasons why you may get a role that has nothing to do with you and your ability and your talent or potential or your face, but it's still a real pain in the ass.
Bronte (1:14:55): Thank you so much for chatting with me today.
Leigh (1:14:56): It's okay.
Bronte (1:14:58): It's been a pleasure.
Leigh (1:14:59): Thanks for having me in my own home.
Bronte (1:15:00): A real treat to have you here and sit with you at our shared desk.
Leigh (1:15:04): Thanks for letting me buy you a coffee.
Bronte (1:15:06): Thanks for pouring me a cup of tea when I got cold.
Leigh (1:15:09): Absolute pleasure.
Bronte (1:15:15): This week, I wanted to recommend another podcast. You may have noticed I'm into the podcast thing… and it's David Tennant's podcast. It's so good. It is just an easy listening. It is David Tennant interviewing a bunch of actors that he's worked with. Oh my God, Olivia Coleman and James Corden and Catherine Tate, Tina Fey. It's just, it's so fun and so interesting. And if you're an actor listening, it is fucking cool to listen to David Tennant chat to these incredible actors. Yeah. It's a bloody time and it's so good.
If you're ever keen to listen to something in particular, chuck us a message. I'm always keen to have a chat about what podcasts are out there and what I would recommend. I've got a bunch about food, I've got a bunch of comedians having chats, actors chatting to actors. I've got a bunch of mental health, some on yoga teaching if anyone is into yoga teaching or just interested in yoga and how it functions in the Western world. Heaps and heaps of podcasts to listen to. Oh, there's also this really cool one called Chats with Creatives. So, I mean, if you've listened to, all the way to the end of this episode, you probably know it.
So, this is the end. I'll be back really soon, but until then, stay creative.
Chats with Creatives is produced by Anahata Collective, music is by the wonderfully talented Rick Scully. Please rate, review, subscribe. Let me know how you like it. Let me know your thoughts. Holler if you want to chat, I'll catch you next week.
Bronte (1:17:07): Is that you helping me test the levels?
Leigh (1:17:10): Yeah, it’s also from Ferris Bueller.
Bronte (1:17:12): What?
Leigh (1:17:13): Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
Bronte (1:17:15): Oh my God. I found the cup placemat that I was looking for. You're using it.
Leigh (1:17:19): Underneath my cup.
Bronte (1:17:20): But I brought you another cup in. There are so many liquids in this room it's unsafe with all this technology. Keep talking.
Leigh (1:17:29): This is a wet, wet room.
Bronte (1:17:31): So moist.
When The Light Leaves (dir. Jayde Kirchert)
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