1.3 Fight for the Fight
With Lyndall Grant
Lyndall Grant and Bronte Charlotte chat about life as a professional Fight Director and motion capture specialist. We delve into Lyndalls experience starting her company Captivate Action, training and working in the UK and then moving back to the Melbourne to jump straight into working at the MTC and the VCA, and then landing a role in one of the biggest productions in Australia, Harry Potter and the Cursed Child!
During this episode we discuss:
[03:00] Landing an ensemble role in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, what is expected of you as a cover in such a huge production, and the Harry Potter family
[04:46] Lyndalls history in acting training, fight training and motion capture, and how 15 years of hard work lead to her acting break
[11:46] The difference in support networks in Australia vs the UK
[14:01] Starting up Captivate Action, Lyndalls fight and motion capture training company
[17:12] The in’s and out’s of motion capture casting
[19:18] The in’s and out’s of fight directing
[23:13] Choreographing fights between, or involving, women, and different audience & actor responses to fights
[30:42] Consent, power dynamics, and actor vs character abilities
[34:22] Being faced with misogyny, childish behaviour and difficulties as a woman in the workplace
[41:27] Intimacy in fights, using unsexualised language, and the effect on the aggressor of a fight scene
[45:21] Societal pressures and expectations on men to behave in certain ways, the cultural change that needs to happen, and how to deal with experiences with aggression on the job
[52:38] Habits, warm ups and being wholeheartedly in love with performing
[55:43] GET ON IT: Sex Power Money by Sara Pascoe (podcast & book)
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Bronte:
This is Chats with Creatives, a podcast where we talk about living as creative humans in a capitalist society, the experiences we have and insecurities we hold, a place where we have open and inclusive conversations to learn, understand, educate and connect.
My name is Bronte and this is Fight for the Fight with Lyndall Grant. I'm super excited to talk with Lyndall today. Lyndall is an absolute powerhouse. She is an actor, a professional fight director, she runs her own company, Captivate Action, which teaches stage fighting, motion capture skills, she holds workshops and trainings for all peoples in the arts across Australia and the UK. Lyndall is just one of those people that make you feel calm and grounded and capable. And I feel really privileged to have had the opportunity to study with her at the VCA and then have her guidance on some of the shows that I've worked on since. This chat with Lyndall is so full. It is just brimming with intelligence and wonder and love. Lyndall dhs a great love for the craft of stage fighting and for teaching. And she is a magnificent teacher. Lyndall is a wealth of knowledge. She is so wise and talking to her today was just so beautiful. I myself have had some really difficult stage fighting situations since leaving the VCA... It hasn't been that long and I've already come across a few quite unpleasant situations and Lyndall is always so gentle and so supportive and I am so grateful that she talked with me today. Lyndall is currently working on Harry Potter, one of the biggest productions in Australia at the moment. And there are things that we can talk about and things that we can't. So, we're sharing as much as we can with you today. I really hope you enjoy. It's such a beautiful chat.
Just before we begin, I would like to acknowledge that I'm recording this podcast on the stolen lands of the Wurundjeri People of the Kulin Nation. Welcome Lyndall! Can you give us a little rundown of who you are and your history in the creative industries?
Lyndall:
I am an actor, a fight director, movement director and motion capture specialist. So, my history through the industry was... I auditioned for drama school in the UK and left back in 2006. And then I got completely romanced by stage combat when I was at drama school. So, when I left and started working as an actor, then I started training more and more in stage combat, got completely sucked in, trained for three to five years to become a stage combat teacher and fight director. And that was the majority of my work until I started branching into motion capture. And, then I came back from the UK in 2016 and started teaching at the VCA and working with a bunch of the theatre companies in Melbourne and then decided I really wanted to get back into acting again. So luckily, I got a job in Harry Potter and that was quite a nice way to get back in.
At the start of 2018, I was sitting with my good friend Sonya Suares at New Years going like, "oh mate, like I love, I love fight directing," which I do. It's so exciting and it's so exciting working with students as well. It's such beautiful feedback of watching people train and have discoveries. But I was like "oh mate, I just really want to get back into acting again. I could just feel it. It's been bubbling for years and it has to be this year." So, I luckily heard about the Harry Potter auditions and threw my name in the hat and managed to get this role. So that was a really nice way to get back into acting. The show for me, if you were to write down like, "why Lyndall are you an actor?" Every single thing in that is encapsulated in this show. So I've been a bit lucky with that!
Bronte:
I don't even know what character you play. I haven't seen the show yet.
Lyndall:
I can't tell you anything!
Bronte:
Like, I know... well, you know, obviously I've read it, I've auditioned for it. But like...
Lyndall:
Oh you've read it! I can tell you about it. I'm in the ensemble. I also cover three other tracks.
Bronte:
Have you been on for any of them?
Lyndall:
Oh yeah. As a cover it's a fascinating thing, because you have to be constantly ready to go on at short notice. Like, I have been on at short notice before, even during a show I've been on. Yeah, that was exciting. Yeah. You have to constantly be ready to go on and you know, it blows my mind how incredible all the actors are because everyone does it. So, it's up to you to just constantly keep it fresh, all the blocking and all that sort of stuff. You know, and the blocking is so specific, like it's made me ask more of myself as an actor and also ask more of other people as actors. Like, seeing what people can do, it's like, "nup, do it. Put your mind to it, and do it!"
Bronte:
So, you did all of your stage combat training essentially in the UK?
Lyndall:
I did. I trained in the UK - I trained at ArtsED School of Acting. The culture, or the systems of training for stage combat in the UK are a little different to what they are in Australia, in terms of just, for example, I trained with the British Academy of Dramatic Combat, and they train actors in how to do stage combat for film and stage and TV, but also the train stage combat teachers. And then, once you're a teacher then you are expected that you will fight direct. Whereas in Australia I'm with the Society of Australian Fight Directors and we train people again how to do stage combat or film combat... But then we train fight directors. And then, it's understood that if you're a flight director, you'll also be a teacher. So yeah, all of my early training was in the UK and it's kind of cool because I could then drop back into Australia with like, "hey, I've got all this stuff I've been doing for the last 10 years." It was really bizarre for me because when I left the UK, sorry when I have left Australia for the UK, I wasn't in the arts at all and it was...
Bronte:
You were a vet, weren't you?
Lyndall:
I was a vet, yeah. Technically still am, although I haven't practiced for a few years now. But I had just left university and I went straight to the UK to practice. And for me, being an actor at that point was an absolute pipe dream, something which I desperately, desperately wanted to do as part of my whole being. But it just seemed like, the thing that would never happen to anyone. But I'm stubborn enough that I was just like, "no, I'm going to do this." So then I worked for a year and a half in the UK in practice, and then auditioned for the rounds of drama school in London and got into ArtsEd. So it was quite amusing that I left Australia very much in the veterinary science world, very remote from the acting world, and then, you know, 12 years later, drop back in and now I'm very much in the arts. I'm still new here, like I've been back 4 years. But, I still don't know people. I don't know the industry. I'm still learning. So, it's quite funny to have had this back, sort of, back catalogue of work, but none of it's been in the culture that I'm currently in.
Bronte:
It sounds like you followed curiosity more than made like, very specific life plans.
Lyndall:
I think both. I actually did have a very specific, I'd say, vocation... Need for what I wanted to do, but not a defined way of how I got there. So I think for me, my journey through the arts was always a matter of being really stubborn and probably a little bit... Not sensible. If I was sensible, I really should have given up a really long time ago. Especially living in the UK, it was so often that I was down to like, "you know, I've got eight pounds left and 12 days 'til I get paid and let me make that into a meal..." That was routine for such a long time, just literally scraping by. And I did have to, you know, every so often with my head held low, return to the bank of mum and dad and just sort of go, "hey, yeah, I know this is my decision and it's not meant to impact you at all, but, hey, can you help me out?" Which of course they did. Which is pretty demoralising, though, when you're in your mid 30's and still be asking your parents for help to do the artistic career that, you know, is not the most, well, it's probably the least sensible thing to do for me at that point. So, it really took a lot of innovation and there were so many roadblocks. But each roadblock really was an opportunity because it really forced you to innovate. So then it let you carve out your own path in your own way through this industry rather than just going, "oh yeah, bang I arrive and you know, X Factor."
It was trying to, definitely trying to make every mistake that you make into a positive and an opportunity. Like, "OK so I've messed this one up, but actually I can turn this into something which is going to work well." As long as you think about it. I made a lot of mistakes in the early years and then when I... I set my own company up in 2013 and I was very keen on not stuffing it up, but by stuffing it up I don't mean, not making mistakes. I mean, by considering everything that I do and using every opportunity that I have to make it work. It is interesting to look back now on Harry Potter because technically you could say my acting break was at age, I think I was 38 when I got cast. But that could not have been a break without having done fifteen years of hard work beforehand. No way at all. And I think that's what's so satisfying about it, because all of the training I've done along the way, every single bit of training and every bit of extra work and every bit of all the free jobs you've done and all the things we just go, "oh, I feel like I'm just filling up my time..." Actually, I never really felt that. I just enjoy working! The times when you go like, "oh, do I invest in this training, I haven't got any money..." Literally all of that has come back into this moment. So, yeah, it's a break, but it's a break that could not have happened without fifteen years of really hard slog.
Bronte:
And have your parents seen Harry Potter yet?
Lyndall:
Yeah, they've seen it three times now. So they saw the dress rehearsal, they saw the opening, and then they came back later in the year. And I remember just walking out and seeing my mum, and she's just beaming, she just went, "that was amazing!" And there was nothing else. It was just, "that was amazing!" And then, after the opening, my dad said, "wow, I think that was one of the best experiences I've had. I think that was as good as a trip to Europe!" The worst thing was obviously when we found out, we couldn't tell anyone for such a long time. But I did tell my parents.
How was that for you, having to keep that a secret for so long? Because I know you were still, I was still in VCA and you were still teaching us and we had no idea.
Lyndall:
It was actually really exciting. It was thrilling. It was such a phenomenal time of the year. Like, I actually enjoyed having that little secret to hold because it meant whatever was happening in your day you could go, "yeah, but I'm in Harry Potter." It's an incredible feeling because I remember the feeling felt too big to hold, like I just didn't know what to do with it in my body. I was just like, "I can't... I can't grasp this. This is just... It explodes me." It was so exciting. And I remember our first day walking into rehearsals, the same thing. I'm like, "this is just too overwhelming. My body can't hold all of the happiness that I'm feeling right now."
I loved teaching your year. You guys were absolutely amazing. It was a real family. And I was very upset to leave the VCA family. But at least I got to see your team through. But I do remember walking across the lawns to one of the classrooms and there was a whole bunch of everyone sitting there. I just walked out and everyone just like, burst into this huge applause. And it was, that was beautiful. It was really sweet... Not, not in a kind of like, indulgent, "ooh people are clapping me" way. It was just a genuine feeling of love. Yeah!
Bronte:
Yeah. And just joy and such excitement for you in the next journey that you were going to go on because... You meant so much to us as a company as well, like we fucking loved your classes. It was just general consensus that Lyndall's fight chorey classes were like, just everything. And half the time in the mornings when we started doing the training sessions in the morning, and we'd walk in and you'd be like, "you guys look tired..." And then we'd just do some Tai Chi. And we were all like, "fucking thank God for Lyndall."
Lyndall:
Bless you. No, it was... I was so proud of you all as a year. And I think what people have done with their training and how, I think what was most impressive about your year is how much you really work together as a company. Everyone! Everyone was in it for each other. And I think that's just what's so important in these industries, is having that ability to look out for each other. That was actually a huge difference between the UK and Australia. In the UK, it's very, very closed. No one is going to help you out. And so, any achievement you have there, you really, really hold tightly and go, "I did that and that was bloody hard." Whereas Australia, people will go, "hey, yeah, well, no, I can't help you. But if you go to this person, this person will help. Hey look, I'll give you my contacts! Have my contacts. You know what I'll get you..." And that would never happen in the UK. There's no way someone would share a contact, because it's like, "no, that's my contact. If I share it with you, you'll get it and I won't get it."
When I arrived back from the UK, there was a lady called Felicity Steel... Still is a lady called Felicity Steel, who is a fight director in Melbourne. She was the only fight director based in Melbourne at that time. And I arrived just as she was deciding to take a bit of a step back. So, she ended up just offering me all of the work that she either didn't want to, or couldn't, do at that point. And that included my very first job with the Melbourne Theatre Company. That would have never happened in the UK, that someone just went, "oh this is my work that I worked for for ten years... Here, I'm going to give you now the benefit of the contacts I built up." She and I have a beautiful relationship where we are constantly passing work back and forth between each other and it just means that we always have each other's back. But also what we're working for is the industry as a whole. We actually have a really sincere belief of how... Of the integrity of the industry, and of the work with fight directing and stage combat. So for us, it's more important that, that is always fulfilled rather than who actually does it. But what happens is then, the work evens out. Every single time I've given a job to Felicity, she's give me one back and vice versa. So, there's no like, "oh, this is my job. This is my work. No one can get it." It's just, no, we are all working to better the industry. That's happening now, I have an assistant, Josh Bell, and he's taking on now some of the work that we still can't do. It's great to have a family, I think.
When I made my company, I made a conscious decision that I was going to base it through collaboration. Which does mean you get burnt. Like, I have been burned from people messing me over. So, I think, I still... You know I still trust my instinct. There's times when you know, spidey senses will be flashing up and saying, "if you do this, these are the things that could happen..." But then you're making an informed decision. But overwhelmingly, there's always been amazing things that come from collaboration rather than holding tight onto your own work, I've found.
Bronte:
How was your experience setting up Captivate Action?
Lyndall:
It was really exciting, because it was an opportunity to create something that was mine and do it my way. So, I could learn from the experiences I'd had previously and decided what I did and did not want my company to look like. And what my practice, what I wanted that to look like. It's like your baby, you know, you sort of just, you can foster it and grow it and decide things like logos and websites. I did a lot of skills trade when I was setting up. For me that was a good way of acknowledging that I have no money and... but I wasn't using people skills for free. There are already a number of companies in the UK working in the fight world, but no one at that point in the UK was training people specifically in motion capture. So the journey into MoCap for me was, I went to this amazing workshop - look it up, Paddy Crean Workshop in Canada, which happens every two years. And at that workshop, I worked with two ladies, Michelle Ladd Williams and Carrie Thiel, who designed The MoCap for the first Lord of the Rings trilogy. And I did a workshop with them. And that just, oh, my God, it was... It inspired me so much as to the potential of this industry.
And I got back to the UK and there was no one teaching it. There was no one doing it. There was nothing in it. So I... This is what I mean when I say I'm stubborn. I decided I wanted to work in this industry. So I sat down and emailed every single MoCap studio I could possibly find in the UK. And at that point I had, sort of, a team of fighters I was working with. And I said, "hey, I've got a bunch of fight performers... We'd love to learn how to do MoCap. Could you use us in anything? Do you have any R&D or do you have any shows where we could have it as a training experience and you could have it for whatever you need it for?" And an amazing guy called Alex Counsell from the University of Portsmouth MoCap lab got back the next day and said, "yes, come down!" So we started this amazing relationship where I could go down to his studio and explore and play and develop techniques for performance, techniques for direction and techniques for teaching. And at the same time, then, because they're a university, they would use our material for developing course content or for trialling a new system. So from 2013 to 2016, we would constantly be going up and down to either help them when they needed bodies or to do research for ourselves. And that's also the place where I created the Performance Capture Intensive, which was the first sort of intensive, 5 day intensive course I think in the world. And that wouldn't have happened without them helping us out with it.
Bronte:
Do you think people would be getting on set and having to just learn it on the job?
Lyndall:
Yeah, absolutely. So what was happening in the UK... And again, it's a very different place to what it is in Australia, because unfortunately, MoCap industry hasn't taken off as much as what it has in Europe... There was a small group of people who were getting most of the work and therefore every so often someone would come in and learn some stuff, but then it would just be the same team of people who would be doing that work. There are now, in the UK and in the US, there are now people actually doing training in motion capture. But at that point in time, there wasn't anyone. So it was a different industry in the UK. It was a bit of a closed shop.
Technically, yes. Technically, I think for motion capture or for performance capture... Technically, yes, it is just 'acting.' So you know, technically you could say any person could get in the space and act and there's your, there's your shot. But it's in the same way that, yeah but acting for screen is just 'acting,' and acting for theatre is just 'acting,' or acting for a studio theatre versus outdoor performance versus a fourteen hundred seating theatre is just 'acting' and MoCap acting is just 'acting.' However, for each of those different environments, you have a different style or different technique that you turn up or down. So yes, it's just acting. But there's things you can definitely do with your physical performance and your internal world that then give the studio a better take. And that's what it's about. There's only about 10% of what the actor does, that really contributes to the overall final look at the end. So there's a massive post-production process that it goes through. However, the actor does have the ability to influence, in some respects, how much work has to go into post-production. So if you do a rubbish take... Three seconds of a rubbish take could take three hours or more, longer, to fix. But if you can get them good quality data right at the start, then you can actually help streamline the process through. So, for me to be a true motion capture or performance capture actor, I like to be able to know the technical stuff behind it so I can help, again, collaborate with their process rather than kind of go, "yeah, he's my bit. You guys do your bit."
Bronte:
I'm wondering how hard it is to get proper fight direction into shows in Australia. Do you find that people are like, more willing to kind of put money somewhere else? Or like, I know you've had some difficult experiences with people letting their egos run wild and thinking that they don't need it, and then people get hurt...
Lyndall:
It depends entirely on the show in this country. And same with any country, to be honest. We have a range from the absolute best practice to the absolute worst. And yes, finances come in to that. But a lot of that just comes down to education and what people have experienced in the past. I did find with a lot of companies I was working with in Melbourne, their expectations on the actors and for fights sometimes undermined, I think, what you could actually achieve. But then, having said that, there is sometimes... You walk into a job and they're literally just doing everything precisely in a way that makes it easier for everyone.
So you touched on it in terms of safety. I mean, the reason why you get a fight director, first and foremost, is safety. But also, our job is actually a quite complex craft of creating something that's safe, and creating something that's also effective. You need to be able to facilitate a story. That's why it's there. And so one of the things I would often say to people I'm training, or even sometimes with the director I'm working with if they haven't had experience of working with fights, is "why is this piece of violence here? What storytelling or character development or purpose does it have?" So, the best way to tell that is, if you were to take this fight out, what would it do to the show? So therefore, we need to actually work out, what's the point of having it here? What's the aim? Are we actually trying to just further the plot. Are we actually trying to say something about a particular character?
In general we say that violence will start when words are no longer enough. So people will start to have to communicate that physically. And for me, that can include just walking into someone's personal space. And then, of course, it could include a massive fight scene. So, in terms of trying to then create that, you need to collaborate with the actors because they're the ones who are up there having to do it. So, you need to be able to do something that they feel safe with. And that is a moveable feast... What they feel safe with in this moment, in this situation, today. You need to do what they feel is going to work for that character, because they're the ones who have to carry an emotional journey on and do it every night without freaking out about it. You need to satisfy what the director wants. You need to satisfy what what you want as well, whereas that's kind of woven into everything. But then you're also still collaborating a lot with sound, with lighting, with set, with costume. Everyone sort of pulls together.
So, there's a moment when you're standing there as a fight director and if you happen to pull out a little one move, it might look like, "oh, yeah, she's just pulled that move out and slapped it down." But actually, in that one moment you flick through all those considerations the whole way through. All of those things come into, "and now let's do this move." So people will be restricted by how much time they can give to a fight director, not just for paying a fight director, but also that's time out of other rehearsals that they have to take away. So it's always a process of negotiation. In some cases, you will have people who absolutely go, "yes, we'll give it the time they need. We will make sure the actors have space to rehearse. We'll get you back enough times to make sure that this is safe." Other times you walk in and have an hour, and they're like, "oh, we want this sword fight... go." And then, part of the job is just trying to work out. "all right, what can I do with this time to try and satisfy all the things we're trying to do at once..."
Actually, some of the work I'm most proud of was done in my early days, I hate to say it, but when I wasn't being paid. Because at that point, because I wasn't being paid, I could go, "I need a weekend for these fights for the Scottish Play." And they'll go, "sure! You've got that because we're not paying anyone. We've got free space!" So you can really invest the time to create these amazing works. Whereas, later on now I think the craft is using your wealth, the sum total of your experience, to try and get this done as efficiently and effectively as possible.
Bronte:
Have you ever taught really rad fights to women? Do you ever get to do a really cool fight that's not between men? I'm asking, as a woman, because that's what I'm interested in.
Lyndall:
Not as often as what I would like. I did a job where I learnt so much on, where I was actually directing 2 female actors who were both... I think they were either in their late 70s or early 80s. I learnt a lot from that because, at the start I was so worried about hurting them that I was almost wrapping them up in cotton wool rather than respecting what they just said they could and couldn't do. So, it was interesting to then step back from the age myself and just say, "I would ask any person, what do you feel comfortable doing?" People have different injuries you have to take care of... People have different emotional things tied up with fights, and you can, you know, there's a potential for triggers depending on the other person's experiences. So you always have to take it literally by what that person can do now, today. So I needed to remind myself of that rather than going, "oh, my God, I don't want to hurt these women!" To going, "they're actors. They can tell you what they can do. You need to listen to them and that's it." And it was... When I finally made that jump, it was really exciting and they did an amazing job.
I'm actually just trying to think of when I have had to fight between two women and I'm struggling. I'm sure I must have done one. OK, I can remember one. A few years ago I was working in London... I used to do the fights for the Kingston Rose Theatre. It always had this beautiful Christmas show, which always has a couple of casts of kids, like 25 kids. So, there was an amazing fight between... It was Alice in Winterland was the show... and the fight was between the Queen of Hearts and Alice. And Alice was this kickass - They had four girls playing it. All of them were amazing. And it was the Queen of Hearts had a mace and the 'Alice's' had a long sword. And it was this amazing fight between those two women. And then, Alice actually fought this huge Jabberwock puppet, absolutely huge, and she slayed the Jabberwock. It was a bit of a, like you know, a different take on the Alice in Wonderland story. But that was so fulfilling, just to see these young women just taking on this role. And, oh, my God, you should have heard the audience after. You'd walk out and you'd see these young girls in the audience with their eyes glowing because they'd just seen Alice kill the Jabberwock puppet like an absolute badass. And not just young girls. Any gender or any identity, would see this and just be inspired by it. And I didn't know that was going to happen until I saw it. And then I was super proud.
I think, I remember when I first started working as an actor and I was doing lots of stage combat. I was so frustrated because my boyfriend at the time had done some extra stage combat training, but not as much as me. But oh my God, the number of fights he got to do, he was always... He was Mercutio. He was Hamlet. He was doing all these fights. And I was there with my bazillion hours of training going, "anyone want to use me? No? I don't get to fight? No, I get to watch other people fight, great!"
Or you get to be saved by the people fighting.
Exactly.
Bronte:
Just on that note like, when you came in to do fight chorey for shows I was part of last year, and the two boys that you were getting to do the fight had never done any stage combat training. And their fight like, what you had showed them and trained them to do was great, but they just had never done it before. And I was like, sitting there being like, "come on!"
Lyndall:
I can't tell you how often it is that the female actor is there watching the boys do the fights. And it's interesting because, it has actually happened more than once, that the female actor who's sitting watching the guys fight is actually trained, and quite often one of my students. And like you said, it's not to undermine the incredible experience that these actors do, because to try and - oh my God! - to try and take on a fight, it's stressful. Like, there's a lot in being an actor, which is why you need training and why you need a fight director. The ryness you have to have, in kind of going, "OK, the girls are watching again. Great. Yeah, no worries." But you were an amazing fight captain, I have to say.
Bronte:
Oh thank you.
Lyndall:
You did a great job. I take encouragement from a lot of what's happening in film right now. There are a lot more fighting female roles and multidimensional fighting females as well, not just sort of like, oh you know, she's a badass and that's all she does. I remember the experience of seeing Wonder Woman. And I cried when I was watching that, because I suddenly realised that I had never seen that when I was growing up. To sit there watching and going, "I would have been so inspired by that as a child." And to realise the complete vacuum of this kind of content. And I'd always heard from people in the industry, "oh no, but the reason why we don't have females fighting is the audience doesn't want it." I'm like, "that is absolute rubbish... As was shown by the box office"
Bronte:
It's not true! As you said like, when the audience would see the Alice in Wonderland, they would leave just being like, "holy shit, that's amazing." I always find seeing women fighting or women using their bodies so much more inspiring to me, because that's what I connect with.
Lyndall:
And the thing is also, it's remembering that a lot of men are also inspired by seeing women fighting. Because we're also talking about a demographic of going like, also not every guy is a great-big-buff-muscular-bound... It's also, the people who have to use a different way of fighting than just brawning their way through it... You know, people of different sizes and shapes and backgrounds will fight with different styles. Maybe that you're, it's because you're fast or maybe it's because you're clever... And that will actually win over the brawn in a lot of occasions. So it's allowing for the fact that you don't have to be this kind of, I don't know, it's been what's made into an icon of an action hero... It could be any person. It's a really outdated image of who the action hero used to be.
When I was in London, I did do a play of Henry V Part 1, and my role of Lady Percy actually had been re-written by a great writer and actor and director called Michael Yale. And what he'd done is he'd rolled in three of the male characters and made them Lady Percy. So, she had some of her own words, but also most of the men's. It was only a five hander. And what was amazing about it, is it made her this ultimate politician. So, there was one female in the cast and then four men. So we had the king, obviously. We had Hal, we had Hotspur and we had Falstaff and Lady Percy - who was the puppet master, who was the one who was planning everything and strategizing everything. But it did culminate in the fight between her and Hal, and her and King Henry as well. Actually I was even fighting Falstaff at one point. And it was amazing for that, listen to the audience responses.
So I had to really think carefully about this fight, because also it does work in reverse in that, I knew the boys wouldn't be allowed to hit me in the face in terms of the audience perspective. Because we wanted to like the boys. If any of them punched me in the face, then they would be, "ahh no, you can't punch a woman. Not allowed to do it." So, I had a blade was my weapon, so I was quite deadly. And they had unarmed, and any kind of actions they did to me were very much restraining kind of actions. A couple of body blows, but mostly trying to grapple and... Because I was trying to make sure the audience didn't lose sympathy with the man. And I think that in itself is a really interesting look on how we perceive violence as an audience. Someone who identifies as male hitting someone who identifies as a woman in the face, is very different to the other way around. And you can question as to whether or not that actually is valid, because we know there actually are men who are victims of domestic violence, for example. So it's a really interesting question...
Bronte:
Even if it's not hitting though. In a show I was in recently, the male actor I was acting opposite had decided that he would grab my face, even after I had said that I didn't want that, it hurt...
Lyndall:
For those of you at home listening you can't see that I'm rolling my eyes right now.
Bronte:
And it had even gotten to the point where he was leaving bruises on my jaw. And I had had to be like, "we can't do this anymore because it's hurting me. And also, I don't think it works with the character dynamic. If that's, if that's what you need as an actor to hear me say like, the story and the relationship between the characters, it doesn't work like that. Having the man that you want to sympathize for, or feel sympathy for, aggressively grabbing the female characters face." So much to unpack!
Things to unpack in that, for example, there is no excuse for grabbing - anyone - another actor, at all! I often bring this example out... What other work situation would you think that's OK? If an office worker walked in and said "no but, for what I need for my job right now is to grab you by the face" they would be arrested. So, it's bizarre always that, I suppose as actors we're taught to say "yes, and." And it's like, yeah - no. That fits within a small context. "Yes, and" is someone is making you an acting offer to play with, but also - also - you can always say no! And we should if we're not feeling comfortable with it. You're absolutely right. So, to go back quickly before we unpack more about doing things with no consent... What was fascinating after doing those fights though, was the, again, hearing the audience response. So I had a lot of people going, "oh, my God, it was so amazing to see a woman fight." Which is actually good and patronizing at the same time. My character was in a pencil skirt and heels, so I was fighting in those. Yeah, it was really interesting. I actually had someone come up to me and say, "yeah, I like the fight, but she wouldn't have been that good at fighting." And I was like, "right. So you mean you mean how I fought... She wouldn't have been that good? How I was moving... She would not have moved?" "Nah, yeah. Because she wouldn't have... no." And you know they were trying to say "because she was a woman." And I'm like, "but I did it..?" And then, another person said, "she wouldn't have been able to fight in what she was wearing. She would have taken her shoes off." I'm like, "do you mean again... Like, I literally did? Like, I literally fought in the clothes I was wearing and did not need to take off my shoes."
Bronte:
So you think like, a fictional character couldn't do it but the actor that's doing it can?
Lyndall:
But you know what was interesting, though, to get them a little bit of slack, I actually found myself when I was choreographing the fight... Because I choreographed them for myself... I found myself initially underskilling her. I actually, at the start, was like, "oh, I should make her a little bit more rubbish." And then I had a moment of going, "why on earth would I do that?" Especially in the role she was, in the political role she was, it was absolutely feasible that she would be an adept fighter because otherwise she would be dead by now. So it's fascinating that I even had that first thought in my brain, "I just need to underskill her." And then go, "no, no, if I'm... She's going to do whatever I can do because I am a woman and she is a woman. And this is where we're going to meet."
The number of females I have taught who are such amazing movers. And it comes down to the individual's experience. It just so happens that, I suppose, in the generation we're in, a lot of people who identify as female have done things like dance. Or done movement oriented practices. And I don't think it's got anything to do inherently with gender. It's just to do with what each person has and has not done in their childhood, as they grow up and how much they've moved. I mean, of course yes, every individual person has got then a certain level of physical dexterity that they're born with. But also then, what you grow up doing will influence your ability to move and your patterns of movement.
Bronte:
Is there something within the creative industries that you kind of,, struggle with? And it could just be exactly what you've just said about, how a lot of men end up getting the fights.
Lyndall:
There is a lot I struggle with both as a director and an actor, but I don't think it's necessarily just something relegated to the arts. I was really surprised to find myself in a position in a job I did, I'm going to say within the last ten years... Where it was very misogynistic in the room. What was surprising was, I found myself on the receiving end of pretty much every cliché of many working women. Things like, for example, men talking over me while I was talking. Or I would say something and then a minute later the man would repeat it and that was a good idea. Or when the male director was in the room, they would listen to me, and then when he wasn't, they would just do their own thing. It was really interesting because I felt like a lot of that came from one person who was quite a... Quite a dominant, had quite a dominant personality. And I suppose if we're using these kind of, archaic terms of 'alpha male', that would be the kind of, you know... I say that word because, that term because people kind of know what I'm talking about. But that filtered through a lot of the cast. And I, I was furious and frustrated and...
The thing with fight directing, with dealing with people in general, usually when you come up against someone who's resistant to working with you or just to working with notes... Usually it's because of a fear that they have. And I consider that part of the job of any director, to find out what that fear is and speak to it, not necessarily in obvious terms, but to acknowledge that actually we are all generally trying to make this a good project, but right now there's a block and it could express in you being rude or sulky or misogynistic or just refusing to cooperate... there's a whole range of behaviors... Or accusing the other actor. Generally, it comes from a source of fear. It's something which you have to use a bit of intuition to kind of go, "I think this is what it's coming from." And then talk to that. And then if you can work through that, then you usually get good results. I would say that the majority of the time I manage to get good results with that. I think there's only been a couple of people I can count on one hand throughout my whole career that I haven't cracked. Or I've found their fear and they wouldn't let me talk to it. They're still... It's so deep rooted that it just blocks you off.
In this situation I spent a good two weeks thinking about how to deal with this particular actor who was quite hard to deal with. I even went through in my head, "do I squash him? Do I undermine his confidence? Do I be sarcastic? Do I pull rank? Do I..." But finally, I did have a breakthrough moment where there was a small conversation we had away from the scene, where I found the vulnerability and I felt like after that we found an agreement. I still don't think... It's one of those shows that really burns me because it didn't come off how I would have wanted it. It's very hard when the audience are watching that and they're just judging it on that, and they don't know all the stuff that's happened. All they see is the finished product.
And I did have one occasion once, years and years ago in the UK, where an actor refused to work with me. He had a very, very deep and uncomfortable relationship with violence from real life experience.
Bronte:
Okay. So he didn't want to work with you, not because you were a woman in a position of authority, but because he didn't want to do... OK. Right.
Lyndall:
No. I think... It was part of it. Sometimes you walk into a room and there's an atmosphere and you know something's going down. This particular person was very physically aggressive and my opinion was that he was hurting the female actor he was working with and for whatever reason she was taking it. So, she was, I don't know whether it was because she did want to cause a fuss... But when I was checking and saying, "that looks like it hurts, does it hurt?" And she'd say, "no, no, no, no, it's all fine." I'm thinkin, "Nup, there's no way I'm comfortable with that going ahead for your four week run." The male actor was quite adamant of what he wanted to do, and actually it was similar to a situation you're talking about, where he wanted to grab her around the face and around the neck, and it was a very violent way. So, I was trying to work with a way that would match with his character journey... To do it in an alternative way, but still allow him to feel like he had ownership over that journey. And it was a weird situation because it went from zero to walking out in about ten seconds. That's what it felt like. Obviously beforehand, it can't have been that quick. There must have been things that were building up and building up and building up... Which normally I'm quite sensitive to. But it just seemed to suddenly turn on it's head, and it was very unusual. I still for a long time, hold myself responsible for that. "I should have noticed, or I should have changed the way I did that so that..." You have to reach this point of going, there's a point where you can do as much as you can and then, you know, people also have to step up and not be dick's. Like, it has to be a conversation both ways.
But it does happen. And I will say again, I don't want to... I hate to overgeneralize, but a lot of... There are a lot of a certain kind of male actor who feel that violence is something they should know how to do, because it's wrapped up in the culture of: men should be fighters, they should be hunters, they should be, you know, have physical prowess. So, a lot of the times you can see people really feel threatened by a woman telling them how to move. But most of the time you do actually manage to break through. And sometimes I actually feel like it can be a benefit being a woman, because when you break through that fear or that feeling of being threatened, it gives them permission to be vulnerable because you go. "hey look, it' okay..." And you work your way around it, and like I said, you talk to the fear.
I actually know a lot of male colleagues who find that as soon as I walk in the room, a lot of men will stand up and start beating their chests. And you know, they want to look tough because it's a man showing them what to do. So generally, I find once I start working with people and once they work out I know what I'm doing, they're fine. But it's, you do have to deal with a lot of angst.
Bronte:
Oh my gosh.
Lyndall:
Yeah, it gets boring actually. It really gets dull.
Bronte:
It would get really exhausting having to constantly, like, almost prove yourself as a fight director and be like, "no, no. I know what I'm doing. It's your turn to listen now."
Lyndall:
Yeah, I found in the early days I was more worried about that. I think now I feel like I can walk into a room and I know what I'm doing. I did have, of course, the imposter syndrome for such a long time. I was very sure someone was going to tap me on the shoulder and go, "ahh you don't know what your..." I mean, having said that, it always goes in waves. There's that weird balance between the voice that keeps you honest as a performer. And then also going, "I'm going to listen to some of this voice now, but also I'm going to know when to tell that voice to shut up, because also I do know what I'm doing." So it's trying to go, "I do have experience, but I am always open to acknowledge where I've made mistakes and where I can learn." I think is probably the more useful thing to take on board.
Bronte:
Have you ever worked with an intimacy coordinator or do you kind of take on that role?
Lyndall:
I have traditionally taken on the role by default of an intimacy coordinator. There are a lot of people now doing a lot of training in that field in Australia, which is absolutely fantastic. By default I've done it quite often because unfortunately, some of the violent scenes you work with are often sexual violence. But a lot of the intimacy work I've done has been similar kind of vein as fight directing where you are finding physical ways to represent what you're doing while keeping both people safe. And so a lot of it, I find, is about the language that you use. So you know, if someone was running their hand... I had to do it with someone... Someone had to run their hand down a guy's chest towards his crotch. And rather than say, "Oh, can you run your hand down his chest towards his crotch?" I sort of said, "Can you just lower your hand now?" So trying to use words that... I personally try to use words that just separate it out into the pure physical action, this is the physical choreography we're doing. And that's the framework you work in. And then as an actor, you can decide how much you want to commit yourself into that move.
I have often had the experience where the aggressor is just as affected, if not more affected, than the victim. I think all of the sexual violence fights I've choreographed has had a male character attacking a female character. And once you start to work out the safety and give the female the techniques of, this is how you keep yourself safe, physically safe, like these are the actions we're going to do so everyone's really happy that the physical stuffs working. Then what I find happens is as soon as you start to act the scene and the female starts to make the vocalizations that would go with that, you can generally see the male, or the perpetrator, in this case the male actor, just die. Die is not even the word. It's just something so much more profound. It's something so horrific to them because they feel like they're doing the action. And it's interesting the number of times I've said to the director, "I just need to take some time to chat to the male actor." And they'll go, "they're fine." But they're now. Because it's something so upsetting and vile that they feel like they're the ones doing it... "I'm making this person shriek that way." Rather than reminding them that the actor is making vocalizations that go with this scene. You are both doing a physical choreographed routine and you are not actually involved in the sexual act. However, yes, you're right, it looks like it. But it's something which really... Both people need to be given a space to be safe and both people need to be given a way to remove themselves from that situation. And I think they need to debrief as well. Always check in.
Quite often the aggressor can be just as upset or scared as the victim. So you always have to have a way of having a dialogue. And for me, it's always important to separate that dialogue out from the work. So it's not, "you did this to me tonight." It's "Oh, tonight, the hand connected with my face. Can we have a look at that?" Because as soon as you turn around and go, "you hit me on the face." The other actor's going to go, "No, I didn't. Well, you did that. You were in the wrong spot." But as soon as you break it apart and make it about the purely physical action, then I find you can always have an open dialogue without both people feeling bad.
Bronte:
Just listening to you talk about that stuff makes me very... Feel very passionately that all actors need to learn that sort of dialogue and that way of communicating.
Lyndall:
I witnessed actually, I was in a rehearsal and two actors had to kiss and they hadn't been doing it the whole way through. And then, just in between a couple of the rehearsals, one actor turned to the other and said, "oh, are you comfortable kissing this time?" And the other actor said, "yes." And then, that same actor then clarified, "on the lips?" And the other actor said, "Yes." And then they did it. And I just thought it was such a beautiful moment. I mean, they took... The director hadn't asked them to yet, and so the director was also being very respectful. But just to see two consenting actors say,"do you want to kiss?" "Yes." "On the lips?" "Yes." "OK, let's do it." And it was just so nice to see such a respect between both of those performers.
It's such a cultural change that needs to happen. So we can always step back and diagnose... I always seek to try and find the reason why someone is doing something, because they've got a burden that they're trying to work through. That is not to excuse their actions at all. That is to say, "I just need to understand the motivations for you doing this just so that I don't go insane. But also, I don't believe that you're an evil person." But it's this horrible situation where in where the pressures of society and of culture have instructed men to behave in a certain way. I would be fascinated to see what happens with younger generations now who are growing up with hopefully more awareness of this. But to see this absolute battle where these men who think they have to behave in certain ways or think they can behave in certain ways... And then usually, in my experience that I have seen, I've always seen that it is the woman who becomes the victim of that battle. So whether it's because they are being too rough with them in the fight, whether it's because they're not listening to them... I wish it wasn't the case that it was the majority of time. Unfortunately, it just is. And I'm not sort of grandstanding saying that. It's so difficult that we always have to deal with it. And I think about the number of times when you come home and decide, like... "I wish I could just do my job without all this rubbish." And then kind of, the voice has goes, "that is the job!" I'm like, "it doesn't have to be though, does it?"
I have had one or two experiences with women who are outwardly aggressive or obstructive or rude. But I have to say, I can remember individual occurrences versus the experience I've had where it is pretty common. So I was working with my assistants on a show choreographing a fight between a man and a woman. And you know, the man was, I suppose, of a demographic of the age group I suppose of sort of 40's or 50's or so and, you know, certain things that that demographic of, the cliche of what someone is or isn't going through at that point in their life, and I suppose what they're trying to create for themselves... As in like, what they think they should be doing and what they're not doing. And that can be worse as well, when someone feels like they're not doing what they should be doing and therefore they are less of a person. So then they express it by then behaving in a certain way... Talking around in circles... But anyway, I was choreographing a fight and this man was pretty much what I've seen... I would say, I call him a dime a dozen. You know, his behaviour towards what he wants to do with the violence and how he was treating the woman, and the way he would reply to me.... He took a lot of management. But the goal is to be able to create a cohesive, functioning, happy show that puts forward the vision of what the director wants. I think that's why I always default to trying to be empathetic to them first, because it's not about me, it's not about my ego being crushed and annoyed because they haven't worked with me. I need to facilitate this show being happy and being effective. So if that is achieved through me being empathetic, then that's always going to be the best option. So we did actually, I suppose, get to a point where I think this was working. But as walked out my assistant sort of said, "wow, it was amazing to see you work with that actor." I'm like, "yeah, he's a dime a dozen." I would be surprised if he wasn't like that...
I'm coming across like I'm hating a certain demographic. I don't. I just have, all of the wealth of my experiences have brought up repeated similar situations. And this is how they go. Like I said, I absolutely understand... And this is something which I had to learn also with veterinary work as well. It's just dealing with people. It's going to happen in any job that you work with. One of the things that I found very difficult to deal with was receiving abuse. I luckily never got physical abuse from clients, but a lot of emotional and mental abuse. And I would take that on board and it would argh! Gut me to the bottom of my soul and heart and who I was. I actually had started doing Tai Chi, working with this amazing man called Faisal Mian and it influenced a lot to do with my teaching and a lot to do with the way I try and approach life. But the culmination of that training for me started to let me think about what was actually an attack coming from another person... What was about them versus what was about me. I would always assume it was my fault and something I was doing wrong. Rather than stepping back and saying, "where is this coming from? Why are they doing this? Why are they behaving in this way?" And I found that so helpful because it meant rather than being reactive, I could take a step back and go, "I'm going to try and... It's still upsetting, but let it wash off me." And it was amazing the number of times where, when I would be getting abuse from clients and I'd deal with it in this way, that then about ten minutes later they would come back to me and go, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry I said that to you. I'm just upset." And I could say, "I know you're upset and of course you're upset. It's understandable and don't worry, let's now move forward." So I think, I genuinely do try and find out why people are behaving the way they do, not just to excuse them, but so that I don't go insane.
You know, I was talking to someone about that in terms of bullying, for example, I was bullied a lot as a child. And it's interesting how that affects your behavior with people. And one of the catch phrases is, "oh, no, it's not about the bully. It's not about you. It's about them. They're unhappy. Blah blah blah..." And I think, I always felt like as a kid, "don't make excuses for them. That's not fair." But then I realized that I had personally internalized a lot of that myself and grew up thinking, "I must have deserved it, I must have done something wrong." So, for me to understand why someone is doing what they're doing helps protect myself, and it helps me be in a better position to then resolve the situation. And it's, it's just... you know, one of the sayings is, Everyone has a cross to bear. Everyone is dealing with what they're dealing with right now and also the history of their lives up until this point.
And I think, a lot of what we're seeing in the world at the moment - this is just my opinion - the polarization about "you're wrong because of this!" "No your wrong because of this!" And there's absolutely no meeting in the middle. Someone will say something on Twitter or a statement will be made and instantly there's a red hot reaction! Versus going, "I disagree with what you say, but I want to seek to understand why you're saying what you're saying." Because otherwise, if all I do is turn around and tell you, "you're wrong, you're wrong!" You're going to turn back and say, "I'm right, your wrong. Stuff you!" So I need to understand why they're saying what they're doing, so I can say, "I understand what you're saying... for me, this is why I don't agree with that or this is where I'm coming from. Can we find a way to meet in the middle?" That's the very utopic vision, how I wish the world would operate. But it is absolutely what I have to employ fight directing and teaching.
So I was using this description to someone the other day... If I'm teaching and a students constantly, you know, there's a note they're getting over and over again. If I stand there and just start shouting that note at them, it's really not going to help. Because they're already trying. I mean, there might be a mental obstruction. There might be a physical obstruction. There might be a lack of communication. So, I might try and say the note in different ways. And if it's still not working, it doesn't help to stand there and just keep on beating it. I need to then go, "why are they doing this? What is the cause for that?" And then, again, speak to that. That, for me, is my job as a teacher.
I think it's always a negotiation and compromise of how much each individual is going to step up and take responsibility for their own actions. But when also they need help from someone to reach out a hand and say, "I can see why you're doing that, let me help you with that."
Bronte:
Do you have something in your day that you just have to do? And if you don't do it, you don't feel good or like yourself?
Lyndall:
Coffee! I'm on three at the moment. This is my routine now. I would have one in the morning when I get up. I would have one in my keep cup on the way in. Then I'd always have one more before the evening show. That was my routine. I'm now down to two cups of coffee and a cup of tea. Knocked back the third coffee.
Bronte:
It'll come back though... it'll sneak back in when you get, when you start going back into shows!
Lyndall:
Oh yeah! God yeah! It's part of my show routine! It's six o'clock. I go downstairs, I get my coffee ready for the hour call for the evening. Absolutely.
Bronte:
Oh my gosh. OK, wasn't expecting that! That's great!
Lyndall:
You thought I was going to say like exercise or meditate, didn't you? But no, it's coffee!
Bronte:
Well, yeah, that's... It was going to be my second question. Do you have a daily practice of something?
Lyndall:
It depends if you're talking about now or normal... Like lockdown, yeah, lockdown I absolutely am... I'm doing warm ups five days a week at the moment, which I'm putting online. I will be honest and say it is equally as much for me as what it is for my students. There's a really lovely core of people who are following along with them. What it does is gives me a motivation to create something that is complete. And I do find that when it's done in a giving format, for some reason I just get so much more out of it. Rather than when I'm just doing it for myself.
Bronte:
What's your favourite thing to do creatively?
Lyndall:
I really love using my body.
Bronte:
That makes sense.
Lyndall:
I don't think I have a favorite. I like stuff that asks something of all of you, which I think is why I like motion capture so much... Because it's all of you being involved. It's why I love Harry Potter so much, because it asks for acting, storytelling, intellect, precision, movement is a huge part of it. I think I really love things with just all of your soul is wrapped up in what you're doing. Which, technically you can do that with any kind of creativity. But I indulge and I really love the physical, like I really love moving my body.
One of the things that I love about it is that, if ever I'm having a problem trying to find access into a scene, pretty much all of the time you find it through love. Love is at the core. And it's fascinating because every single scene you walk into, as soon as you remember either the love you have for someone else or the love that you don't get, or that motivation... It falls into place.
Bronte:
I think that's a really good place to end. Love.
Lyndall:
It's true! Like, it surprises me because how you respond to what a character is saying to you changes if you love them deeply and how you love them. It's such a fundamental core. And I think it also reminds us that everyone's working from their own motivations. And it can be easy to presume that they're bad or malign or something... But actually, I would like to believe that most people are just trying to do the best they can with best intentions at the time.
Bronte:
Yeah. Thank you so much Lyndall, this has been so lovely. You have such wonderful things to say.
Lyndall:
You have been amazing.
Bronte:
I just sat here!
Lyndall:
No, thank you so much! Thanks for giving me an opportunity to talk about it.
Bronte:
I wanted to recommend a podcast called Sex Power Money, hosted by Sara Pascoe, who is a wonderful comedian. She has six episodes in this podcast series. She also has a book by the same title, Sex Power Money. And she speaks with people in the sex working industry in the U.K. And although Lyndall and I didn't talk about sex work today, we talked a lot about power dynamics. And even though the topics are so heavy and sometimes really heartbreaking and sometimes really infuriating, it's a beautiful podcast, and I learned so much about the way that sex workers are treated in the UK. but there's discussion about how sex workers are treated around the world. And there's a really, really, really strong relevance today with, you know, movements to defund the police, and listening to this podcast is, it's just horrifying how police treat sex workers, and how sex workers are stigmatized, and how there is such prejudice towards these people. In the end, sex working is a job, just like fight directing. And in any job, there's a general expectation to be treated with respect as a human being. And as we heard Lyndall speak about, I'm comparing two very different careers, but it's an interesting thing to kind of compare how generally, typically, cis white men treat women in any capacity, in any job. Lyndall even mentioned when she was working as a vet how men tend to be stuck in this masculine power complex thing. And it's induced by society and how society treats men and how boys are taught to "be men" and to "grow balls" and to "be strong" and to be all of these things and treat women in a certain way and expect certain things of themselves... If you would like to learn more about how government policy affects sex workers and how sex workers are treated in general, and how it's it's generally quite swept under the rug, I would 100% recommend listening to Sex Power Money. Or getting Sara Pascoe's book Sex Power Money, and having a read or having a listen. It is so fascinating and so eye opening and learning about things like this, like even listening to Lyndall talk, it helps you build empathy. It helps you build understanding for people in different positions than you. And the way that Lyndall talks about coming at a difficult job with empathy and with understanding for where different people are coming from, you can hear it in the way that she talks, it just changes the way that people respond to you and how people behave. And sometimes it doesn't. But most of the time it makes a huge difference. Anyway, that's all for today. Stay creative.
Chats with Creatives is produced by Anahata Collective, music is by the wonderfully talented Rick Scully. Please rate, review, subscribe. Let me know how you like it. Let me know your thoughts. Holler if you want to chat. I'll catch you next week.
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Michelle Ladd Williams stunt co-ordinating
Carrie Thiel motion capture
Faisal Mian at Wu Style Taiji Quan & Qi Gong Association
GET ON IT: Sex Power Money by Sara Pascoe
Head over to the @chats.w.creatives instagram page to stay up to date with episodes and guests we have coming up!
Follow our host Bronte Charlotte on Instagram @bronteandsunshine
Follow this week's guest Lyndall Grant on instagram @lyndallthegrant
Produced by Anahata Collective @anahata_collective
Music by Rick Scully
